Shaking My Head Until I Have A Headache..

[BigBluePappy]

http://www.wave3.com/story/31076662/businesses-could-soon-be-cited-for-abandoned-shopping-carts

Let me get this straight...a law abiding store/owner can have their property "borrowed" and not returned. With a store name and phone number, they can just send someone down to pick it up, from being "borrowed" and not returned, if not done in a timely manner, and without identifying marks they can then be fined for that as well.
Now, I am not going to be confused with a smart man, but how about when they see someone "borrowing" the store's property, how about citing the borrower instead of the "lender"?
All of our problems must be solved if they are looking to get money from citing possibly small business people who may not be able to afford the manpower necessary to go fetch the wayward baskets...

Amazing, simply amazing

[StuBleedsBlue2]

http://www.wave3.com/story/31076662/businesses-could-soon-be-cited-for-abandoned-shopping-carts

Let me get this straight...a law abiding store/owner can have their property "borrowed" and not returned. With a store name and phone number, they can just send someone down to pick it up, from being "borrowed" and not returned, if not done in a timely manner, and without identifying marks they can then be fined for that as well.
Now, I am not going to be confused with a smart man, but how about when they see someone "borrowing" the store's property, how about citing the borrower instead of the "lender"?
All of our problems must be solved if they are looking to get money from citing possibly small business people who may not be able to afford the manpower necessary to go fetch the wayward baskets...

Amazing, simply amazing

If they were able to see someone "borrowing", then this wouldn't be a problem at all. The cost of monitoring theft of grocery carts must be greater than the cost of replacement, because if it wasn't, businesses would have this problem solved.

It's a two-fold problem that the article clearly points out. First, stolen property is a cost to business, so by adding contact information as a means to retrieve, it saves that replacement cost. Second, there's a public safety concern, and there's a cost associated with maintaining that safety, who else should pay for it?

Holding businesses accountable/responsible IS the answer here. If you want government to solve this problem, then it comes down to who pays for it, taxpayers or businesses.

[Darrell KSR]

I don't have an issue with this either. In addition to the comments Stu made, I want to add one small analogy.

I frequent (I don't know why, I just find it interesting) a police officer forum. I don't post, just read. Anyway, someone was complaining about their car that was stolen. They reported the car stolen, and the police recovered it. They had it towed for safekeeping.

The victim complained about two things:

a) They received a phone call at midnight stating the car had been recovered. They were irritated their sleep had been interrupted.

b) They did not want to pay for any storage costs for their vehicle, because they said the car wasn't any good anyway, and they were just going to try to sell it for $1,000 or less.

Now, I'm not going to go into detail on what this person (non-police officer) was told by the authorities on the forum, but I see the grocery store owner's obligation exactly the same as the car owner. Pick up their property, or pay a storage fee (fine here). I think that's reasonable, too.

[BigBluePappy]

So you are OK with increased prices, to those of us who frequent the place of business, to cover the extra expense incurred to keep track of their borrowed baskets? That is what I would do if I owned a small business and had to allot manpower to go cart fetching throughout the neighborhood, lest I get fined...

I recently saw a person borrowing one of these buggies, from a Kroger and there were no less than three police officers in sight at the time, and not a thing was said or done. Guess that is what I get for living in Louisville.
I know we have more pressing things on the agenda than this...

Guess I am more of a curmudgeon that I thought...

[Darrell KSR]

Actually, I think you're more of a liberal than a curmudgeon. ;) What you are proposing is in an imposition of a tax on those of us who may or may not even be customers for the cost of retrieval or storage of the buggies.

I explain to my business law class on the first day that bad things sometimes happen, and society and law have established rules and regulations to govern who should bear the burden of those bad things.

Here we have the storage and retrieval of a product. Should this burden fall upon the innocent taxpayers? That is what you are proposing, unless the owner of the goods doesn't retrieve them themselves. If they burden someone else with the return, there is a cost to it. Similarly, there is a cost even associated with the storage. That burden should not fall upon the innocent taxpayers, but on the store owner who fail to keep guard of his own product.

Oh - I glossed over your comments regarding the police officers watching someone "borrow" the grocery cart. Unless they are private security, and know whether that cart is being stolen, rather than the permitted use of the car by the store owner as a regular course of their business, they can't be held responsible for the storekeepers failure to secure his own property. Perhaps if the store owner provides a sign that no party may bring the cart past a certain point, then you may have a point, but I am very reticent to impose this burden on police officers who have other duties and no way of knowing whether that cart is being stolen or not. ,

[Doc]

How about this. Park a damn police car out front of the store and when somebody STEAL a shopping cart they are ARRESTED for THEFT. When they go to court they are fined and the fines are used to pay the police who have to sit and watch the parking lots of the stores.

See the store owners pay taxes too. And the store owners purchase property to be used by the people who frequent their store while in their stores. Those carts are not to be used to carry their groceries to the bus stop. How about I need a car so I just barrow yours? Take it off your property and leave it somewhere, then if you don't come pick it up, well that your problem.....and the gov't will fine you.

Me, I'm for fining the crimminals who steal, not the merchants who provide for the convenience of their shoppers.

[Darrell KSR]

Sure. And when someone is borrowing my car and the police arrest them they're going to have some monstrous lawsuit when they find out it was with permission. You see, the way police officers find out a car is stolen is it is reported. Same thing with a grocery cart. It is absurd to suggest they should know before the fact. And frankly, I don't want my tax payer dollars going to defend that lawsuit for a wrongful arrest.

[Doc]

I'm for the store owner sitting outside his store and shooting the people stealing his property. That will teach them!

The idea that a store owner who provides carts for the convenience of the people who use his service should then have to hire security to prevent people from stealing his property, and then when people do steal it, have to pay a fine if he doesn't spend the money to get it back is ABSURD. He is the victim of the crime. What's next, make rape victims buy their attackers Valentines day cards? That seems fair too.

The police stop people all the time on suspicion of crimes. That is part of their job. You know anybody who owns a stainless steel shopping cart? I sure don't. And if I see some guy in grimy clothes walking down the street with one full of old cans I'll bet he doesn't own one either. And I'll bet a police officer who is worth anything would come to the same conclusion. Sort of like when a car is reported stolen and they stop similar cars but then upon questioning realize its not stolen so they don't arrest the people. Happens every day which is why there aren't these monstrous law suits that you fear. Of course theft of shopping carts is up there with theft of milk crates. Not a big deal unless you are a dairy or a supermarket. Still, this reminds me of the time my senior year in HS when me and 4 of my buddies we out cruising in Crestwood and stole "Calvin's Wheelbarrow". Now old Calvin was a bit of a legend in Crestwood, sort of wandered the streets picking up stuff and us city boys stole his wheel barrow just for the fun of it. Nobody reported it because, well, Calvin didn't have a phone. But guess what, the Crestwood police stopped us about 10 minutes after we nabbed it. And the checked our ID's and they made us go back and get Calvins wheelbarrow where we dumped it when we realized the police were following us. Taught us a lesson too because we sure thought we were in a lot more trouble. Taught us we aught not steal Calvins wheelbarrow ever again!

But I'll bet if somebody came into your business and lifted a calculator or a coffee maker on a daily basis, it probably would be a big deal to you. People don't have the right to steal. Spin it anyway you want but they don't. The store owner provides a convenience for his shoppers and nobody has a right to take that. I don't care if it costs the tax payer money to prevent his lost. He paid taxes too and for that he (or she) deserves to have his property protected just like everybody else. And if there was a real effort to stop it, it would stop. Make a half ass effort and you achieve nothing. Fining the store owner send the message to the thief that stealing the carts is fine. Better to fine the people breaking the law rather then the law abiding ones. But that's just my opinion.

[Darrell KSR]

He he he.

I actually think the German company Aldi has the grocery cart thing figured out. It is a very simple, but ingenious method of not only grocery cart security, but also limiting personnel costs in retrieving the carts and returning them.

Basically, their carts are located in a cart rack with a small lock and chain on the handle of each cart. When you insert a quarter, the lock releases and you have the use of the cart. After you have completed with the cart, you return it to the rack, press it into the cart in front of you, and your quarter is returned.

It may not seem like much, but it keeps the lot clear of straggling carts, and a homeless or indigent person is unlikely to walk to the front of the store, insert a quarter, and then run off with the cart. Their losses are minimal, and they don't have to pay someone to retrieve carts or use machines to do so.

By the way. ..you know me. Of course, I'm for police investigating suspicious circumstances. They can't really arrest based on that, but I would like to see store owners place signs that say nobody has approval to take our cart past this boundary, and have a line on the property. At least that would put everybody on notice, including the police, that there is a lack of consent and a crime likely occurring if someone has the cart elsewhere.

[Darrell KSR]

I replied before you edited your post. At this point, I will just say that even your coffee pot analogy is off, as again, it is a reported crime. You are asking the police, hence the taxpayers, to provide the work that the person should do themselves. They are delegating responsibility.

The one point you keep forgetting, is that again, there is a burden associated somewhere. Sure, it is fun to pretend like the crook will pay for everything, but the reality, rather than the pretend, is that there is no crook when not apprehended. So we are not even referencing a mutually exclusive, either or situation. Instead, as the original post indicated, we are discussing who should bear the burden of the retrieval of the cart. You're suggesting a non existent person, or ghost. In the real world, it is either the taxpayers, or the store owner who allowed the car to leave in the first place. I vote for owning up to your own responsibilities. Obama would vote with you.

[Doc]

We actually have both those here. I think its Biggs in Louisville has had the quarter carts for some time. We have a grocery store that has the signs. One story has big pylons around the store spaced so you can't get the carts out. The carts are 40 inches wide and the pylons spaced every 36 inches. Of course the roadway but folks seldom wheel carts out that way because it too obvious since its one way in/one way out.

When you figure what those carts cost, and a big store has several hundred, you are talking several THOUSAND dollars worth of investement.

[Doc]

I replied before you edited your post. At this point, I will just say that even your coffee pot analogy is off, as again, it is a reported crime. You are asking the police, hence the taxpayers, to provide the work that the person should do themselves. They are delegating responsibility.

The one point you keep forgetting, is that again, there is a burden associated somewhere. Sure, it is fun to pretend like the crook will pay for everything, but the reality, rather than the pretend, is that there is no crook when not apprehended. So we are not even referencing a mutually exclusive, either or situation. Instead, as the original post indicated, we are discussing who should bear the burden of the retrieval of the cart. You're suggesting a non existent person, or ghost. In the real world, it is either the taxpayers, or the store owner who allowed the car to leave in the first place. I vote for owning up to your own responsibilities. Obama would vote with you.


I'm saying kill Osama before he blows up the WTC. You are arguing who pays for the clean it up ;)

Obama says lets all hug and be friends

Thats my analogy

[Darrell KSR]

But you fail to recognize Osama wasn't caught or identified. And if he was, he had no money. But there's still a cost.

The stuff Osama/indigent criminal stole was retrieved. But you want the government to pay for the return, instead of the owner.

Bow up, and accept responsibility. Don't put that on me, the taxpayer. Dang right, I don't want to pay for your lack of security.

I wouldn't make you pay to return my coffee pot either.

You Obama fans are all alike, always wanting a handout!

[BigBluePappy]

The thing that gets me is you called me a liberal.
Them is fighting words.:sign0157:
I would probably be called a Libertarian with a more conservative, especially fiscally, bent.
Oh, and by the way, Get off my yard.
Thanks, Doc for expressing what I was so feebly unable to:
"Better to fine the people breaking the law rather then the law abiding ones."

It is all good, maybe I had not got my nap out when I saw this and it set my teeth on edge. :sHa_grouphug3:

[CitizenBBN]

Libertarians unite! :)

There's a lot more of us, to varying degrees, than the national media wonks and pundits think.

I get your point. Business does nothing wrong, someone steals from them, then they get to pay the tab. Trust me, I get the problem with that sequence too.

i'm also a little bent about the concept of micro-regulation, where a government requires certain info on carts and such. I know the reasons, but I keep wondering where these regulations end. The Feds have handed down regs on how all street signs should be. Do we really need a federal law to regulate street signs? For the last 250 years were people all lost that now we need a national policy that specifies size and font (it does)?

Dont' even get me started on nonsense like the sign ordnance in Lexington.

So I get it. The whole thing has the feel of government micromanaging things and then billing businesses instead of just busting the criminals. I don't know what the answer is to this particular issue, but I get the overall feel of it that you expressed.

[Doc]

But you fail to recognize Osama wasn't caught or identified. And if he was, he had no money. But there's still a cost.

The stuff Osama/indigent criminal stole was retrieved. But you want the government to pay for the return, instead of the owner.

Bow up, and accept responsibility. Don't put that on me, the taxpayer. Dang right, I don't want to pay for your lack of security.

I wouldn't make you pay to return my coffee pot either.

You Obama fans are all alike, always wanting a handout!

Osama was caught, and is dead! :sHa_clap2:

So who pays for the clean up of the WTC, American and United Airlines since it was their planes?

Me, I'm not looking for any handout. I'm looking for nothing. I see no reason for the government to do anything other than enforce the laws against theft. Do that and their isn't a problem. Sounds a lot like the gun advocates argument, huh?

[Doc]

This will be my last post in the thread

I understand what you are saying Darrell. You don't believe the taxpayer should be paying for the clean up. Neither do I. Of course I don't think the taxpayer should be paying for the welfare money that is going to the people who are stealing the carts, or paying for TARC buses that are apparently being used by the cart thieves after they steal the carts to carry their groceries to the bus stop so they can get home, or a whole host of other entitlements/subsidies. Nor do I believe that an owner of something needs to put up a sign that says "Hey, don't steal my stuff", and then do something to keep people from stealing his (or her) stuff, and if they don't do that then the gov't fines them. That seems over the top to me. Whats next, must I put a sign on my driveway that says "don't steal my car"?

Also not all police actions are the result of reported crimes. If the police drive by a house and somebody is climbing through a window, do they stop and ask questions even if there is no report of a break in? Of course they do. And if upon questioning they come to the conclusion its the home owner breaking into their own home, its not an issue but if its a man in a black ski mask with gloves and a gun, odds are they are going to make an arrest without a crime being reported. To me, this is no different. Somebody leaving Kroger with a shopping cart full of groceries headed towards the TARC stop...got to make me think T-H-I-E-F. Now I were a store owner who forked out a couple hundred buck per cart, I'd probably hire a guy to patrol my lot for $20/hr to keep my carts from walking off. Or I might hire a guy to retrieve them from the TARC spot daily and advertise that service. Maybe drum up some business. Is it good business? I think so. Should I be required to do so or else get fined? Not just no but hell no. Unlike you lawyers, all you want to do is make another law so you can defend people against it and then charge them too much! (LOL), I look at what's best for my business.

As I got thinking about this from your point of view (making the original producer responsible for the clean up), how about having McDonalds, Burger King and KFC responsible for their trash? I don't eat at the golden arches or with the king or at the colonels place so why am I paying to clean up their trash? I mean I see litter all the time and who pays to pick it up? My tax dollars, right? But its Mickie D and BK and KFC wrappers. How about they get charged for it? Of course not. That's ridiculous. Those wrappers were not thrown there by the companies nor were they intended to be litter. I don't like that fact that our tax dollars are at work cleaning up that mess but it happens. Of course there is a difference. The patron of MD, BK and KFC didn't steal their dinner and the wrappers.

[kingcat]

No kidding. In the city there are ample opportunities to buy shopping carts or other retail supplies for no more than cig money. There is a store closing every week and there are old carts discarded constantly. And parts are readily available to repair them cheaply. No need to steal one at all...especially the plastic ones
Or a rich indigent can buy used..


http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-11047103484318_2270_7349366

Reconditioned shopping cart
70.00 (was 75.00)



Attn" Street people..moving? Visiting a new bridge?? You can buy one or fifty!

[UKHistory]

In my neighborhood grocery carts are outfitted with a wheel lock that covers the entire parking lot but locks up at the parking lots' end.

It can be a pain to a person that borrows them but this is a way to keep the carts in their desingated area. Shopping cart theft was a horrible in my neighborhood. Even the maintenance crew at my apt building was using the smaller cart to carry supplies.