Growing number of police chiefs, sheriffs join call to arms

[dan_bgblue]

“It’s more important to have a gun in your hand than a cop on the phone." (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/15/growing-number-police-chiefs-sheriffs-join-call-to-arms.html?intcmp=hpbt2)

[CitizenBBN]

I love that quote. It will be used a lot, like "when second matter the police are only minutes away".

That's no knock on the police either, unless we plan some massive budget spending they can't be every place. This nation was about being largely self sufficient, including our security to a point.

I'm sure you saw the most telling stat I've seen on this issue in there, the huge increase in percentage of people who feel safer w a gun in the house. Tells you everything you need to know about the anti gun groups lies about having support.

[suncat05]

I have always advocated every citizen being armed, that is eligible by law of course. It makes zero sense to totally rely on law enforcement to be everywhere and protect everybody. It is not physically possible, nor is it possible in any sense of reality.
"YOU" are responsible for the safety and security of you and your family. "YOU". The individual. Not the damn government.
And........isn't that one of the basic concepts of the U.S. Constitution? Individual responsibility? The need for the individual to be responsible for themselves, and then for their neighbors and the state? And therefore, the nation? Amazing concept, huh?

[Doc]

I have always advocated every citizen being armed, that is eligible by law of course. It makes zero sense to totally rely on law enforcement to be everywhere and protect everybody. It is not physically possible, nor is it possible in any sense of reality.
"YOU" are responsible for the safety and security of you and your family. "YOU". The individual. Not the damn government.
And........isn't that one of the basic concepts of the U.S. Constitution? Individual responsibility? The need for the individual to be responsible for themselves, and then for their neighbors and the state? And therefore, the nation? Amazing concept, huh?

This world and nation is filled with too many idiots and knuckleheads to have EVERY CITIZEN walking around with a gun. That means you would have had those a holes.in San Benadino armed. It means every bar fight between every college knucklehead has the potential to turn into a shootout?I have no issue with RESPONSIBLE individuals owning guns. But when every citizen is walking around toting a gun, we are in serious trouble because we are a lawless society

[suncat05]

Choices, Doc. Everyone has to be responsible for their actions. Act stupid with a gun, you lose your freedom and have to deal with defense attorneys, state prosecutors, and a Judge. That's how it works. Knucklehead or not, under the US Constitution, as long as they're not a convicted felon or involved in a current domestic violence action, it is their choice as to whether they can hold a gun or not. And this is how the Founding Fathers intended it to be. Those who do not adhere to the law eventually are found out and dealt with.
I fully agree with you about the knuckleheads and idiots. Yes, they're everywhere. But we cannot take away their right to self-defense just because they're knuckleheads and idiots. They have to give up their right to have a gun by their own actions. Again, choices.

[Doc]

What you said is every citizen be armed. That would be a disaster. Every citizen has the right to be armed is different than every one being armed. Imagine sitting at a UK vs UL football game with 60,000 armed people in pap John stadium, 50,000 pulling for UL and 10,000 for UK. Sound like a good idea, and a safe one, because EVERY CITIZEN BEING ARMED is a good idea

[kingcat]

Somebody mess up with a gun...we just pull ours out and kill'em, right?

I want a black hat too..is that ok? :)

I already gots me a big ole nife

[suncat05]

Yes, I did say that. But you and I both know that realistically, that will never happen. Why? Choice, that's why. Many will choose NOT to arm themselves, and that's okay too. But I want everyone who is legally able to do so to make that choice.
I hope I have clarified this now.

[kingcat]

Yes, I did say that. But you and I both know that realistically, that will never happen. Why? Choice, that's why. Many will choose NOT to arm themselves, and that's okay too. But I want everyone who is legally able to do so to make that choice.
I hope I have clarified this now.

Just to clear, I knew what you meant. The thought I had above just struck me as funny...I wasn't making fun of any opinion in other words.

So don't shoot! ;)

[CitizenBBN]

I get doc's point, I know people who legally can carry a gun or whatever and I really don't think they are mature, responsible people who need to be carrying a gun, or operating heavy machinery, etc. They are fools, or just not all there, I get it.

The thing is that empirically we know the people who choose to carry are not those people. There are so few crimes committed by people who are permitted carriers that it's all but zero. They just don't pull out their guns and start blasting at bars over a girl or a game of pool. It SEEMS like it would happen, I get the perception, but with most states now having some broad form of carry it almost never happens.

What does happen in those events tells us a lot: the people who do those things usually are already barred from carrying b/c they are felons or have other disqualifying events on their record (like domestic abuse), and they carry illegally anyway.

That's the key that anti-gun people and those who predict the Wild west in every state that expands carry just dont' get: the people who would pull out a gun and do something like that are carrying anyway if they choose regardless of the law, and those who would follow the law and only carry as it is legal to do so won't get drunk and start blasting away.

So I guess I'm with Doc in that I don't want EVERYONE to carry, but I sure want a lot more responsible people to do so, and the good news is that those who choose to do so are empirically very responsible people. The irresponsible ones will carry illegally or just not do it, so the carry laws have no bearing on them anyway.

[suncat05]

Sometimes I don't express myself very well. Maybe this was one of those times.

[Doc]

Choices, Doc. Everyone has to be responsible for their actions. Act stupid with a gun, you lose your freedom and have to deal with defense attorneys, state prosecutors, and a Judge. That's how it works. Knucklehead or not, under the US Constitution, as long as they're not a convicted felon or involved in a current domestic violence action, it is their choice as to whether they can hold a gun or not. And this is how the Founding Fathers intended it to be. Those who do not adhere to the law eventually are found out and dealt with.
I fully agree with you about the knuckleheads and idiots. Yes, they're everywhere. But we cannot take away their right to self-defense just because they're knuckleheads and idiots. They have to give up their right to have a gun by their own actions. Again, choices.

Actually this sort of bothers me as well. When people act stupid with guns, sure they have to deal with prosecutors,attorneys and judges however the the other person has to deal with doctors or morticians! So the flippant "lose your freedom" attitude seems minimal compared to a lose your life situation. But the constitution gives them the right to own a gun. I'd rather see those who act stupid when using guns deal with 4 cement walls and a door made of bars for many years.

[KeithKSR]

Actually this sort of bothers me as well. When people act stupid with guns, sure they have to deal with prosecutors,attorneys and judges however the the other person has to deal with doctors or morticians! So the flippant "lose your freedom" attitude seems minimal compared to a lose your life situation. But the constitution gives them the right to own a gun. I'd rather see those who act stupid when using guns deal with 4 cement walls and a door made of bars for many years.

Those who act stupid with guns tend to deal with four dirt walls for eternity.

[Doc]

Those who act stupid with guns tend to deal with four dirt walls for eternity.

As long as its themselves they are killing, so be it. It was their decision and their consequence. My issue is when its their decision and it costs somebody else their life.

[KeithKSR]

As long as its themselves they are killing, so be it. It was their decision and their consequence. My issue is when its their decision and it costs somebody else their life.

Rarely happens with CCW holders.

[Doc]

Rarely happens with CCW holders.

Then perhaps you advocated every citizen have a CCW permit? Personally I'd be fine with that. Would certainly do a lot to educate people on how to responsibly use guns as well as hopefully get some guns out of the hands of nonresponsible folks. Or maybe NO individual be able to use a weapon without one. Yet another good solution. Gez, and here I thought all you NRA types didn't have any good ideas!

[suncat05]

Doc, I initially stated that I am for every citizen who is legally eligible to have a gun, and should. It's a choice at that point. Either you do or you don't. And the number of people who are CCW permit holders who end up getting in trouble and losing their permits because of that trouble are minimal. Minimal. Almost less than minimal. Why? Because they are law abiding, careful citizens who are, for the most part, not dumb enough to get involved in anything criminal and have the law turn on them. They have their guns and permits for self-defense. That's it.
I understand you have concerns, and rightly so. I do too. But this is one of those things that works itself out. Responsible people rarely, if ever, get in the kinds of trouble you are worried about. Why? Choices. There's that word again. Choices.
I understand and respect your views. Always have and always will. And I get what you're saying about not wanting to have a gun in your house. You're right. That is your decision. And it is your right to make and live by that decision. And I will defend that right for you, as I have by doing what I do in my life for a career.
I hope I have clarified my position in an intelligent manner. Sometimes, written words and meaning don't always come out as I intend them to.

[KeithKSR]

Then perhaps you advocated every citizen have a CCW permit? Personally I'd be fine with that. Would certainly do a lot to educate people on how to responsibly use guns as well as hopefully get some guns out of the hands of nonresponsible folks. Or maybe NO individual be able to use a weapon without one. Yet another good solution. Gez, and here I thought all you NRA types didn't have any good ideas!

I'm all for people receiving training. The NRA and NSSF are also big proponents of training and safety; as well as stricter prosecution of violators of firearms laws already on the books.