Minimum Wage vs Military Wage

[blueboss]

I have not checked this with Snopes or anything, if it is acurate it's very, very sad, if it's close to accurate it's very sad.

Low military pay was not mentioned in the State Of The Union speech.
However, increasing the minimum wage was for those fast food employees
striking for $15 an hour. Let's do some math:

At $15 an hour Johnny Fry-Boy would make *$31,200* annually.

An E1 (Private) in the military makes* $18,378*.

An E5 (Sergeant) with 8 years of service only makes $35,067
annually.


So you're telling me, LaTisha McBurgerflipper, that you deserve as much as
those kids getting shot at, deploying for months in hostile environments,
and putting their collective asses on the line every day protecting your
unskilled butt!?

Here's the deal, Baconator, you are working in a job designed for a kid in
high school who is learning how to work and earning enough for gas, and
hanging out with their equally goofy high school pals. If you have chosen
this as your life long profession, you have failed. If you don't want
minimum wage, don't have minimum skills.

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's in English, thank a Veteran

[KSRBEvans]

Feels a little "Snopesy," doesn't it?

I'm former military, I work with military and I have a daughter who's in the military, so I'm definitely sympathetic to the military side of the argument. But the quoted statement has a lot of holes in it:

1. $15 minimum wage: Right now it's only Seattle and LA (and it's graduated to that at some future date). I don't think there's a national move to $15 minimum wage.

2. E1 pay: You don't see many recruits join the military at E1 anymore. If you graduated from HS and went right in, maybe. But if you have any college credit, you're probably going in as an E-2. Depending on the service branch, number of hours completed and whether you obtained an Associates or Bachelors, you may be going in as an E-3 or E-4.

3. E1 pay of $18K: Base pay for an E-1 under 2 years of service is $1546.80/month, or $18561.60 annually. So pretty close to what the author says. But that's only base pay; an E-1 is also going to get either free housing or a tax-free housing allowance of at least $514.20/month (maybe more, depending on the locality and whether he has dependents). That E-1 is also going to eat for free or get a tax-free subsistence allowance of $367.92/month. So tax-free allowances plus base pay works out to $29,147.04/year, which is not bad for a HS graduate just learning the ropes.

That E-1 is also going to promote pretty quickly. Average Army promotion time to E-2 is 6 months, and promotion to E-3 is 4 months time in grade and 12 months total. So the 18 y/o HS grad with no college credits is an E-3 at 19 and earning base pay of $2033.50/month, plus getting free housing or a tax free housing allowance of at least $539.40/month and free meals or a tax-free subsistence allowance of $367.92/month, for a total of $35,289.84/year. Not bad for a teenager with no college.

4. The E-5 with 8 years of service? First, I wonder why he/she is only an E-5 after 8 years. Should've made E-6 by then. Regardless, his/her base pay is $2580.60/month, or $30,967 annually, so the base pay is even worse than the author states. But add in at least $666.90/month in tax-free housing allowance and the tax-free $367.92/month subsistence allowance, and he's making at least $43,385.04.

5. Other valuable benefits: Remember these military members are also getting free medical/vision/dental care and earning time in a defined-benefit pension plan (increasingly rare these days) which will vest after 20 years of service--all benefits which are valuable and which the McDonald's employee doesn't have.

6. Getting shot at, etc.: The pay listed above applies regardless of whether the military member is forward-deployed or whether they're in Garrison.

I get what the author's driving at, and I appreciate him/her standing up for military members. But using it to knock a $15/hour minimum wage that's not going to apply hardly anywhere doesn't seem like a good way of making the case. My WAG is it's something that was in an email a long time ago and gets repurposed for whatever political issue is hot at that time.

[Doc]

I don't mean to minimize the importance of those who serve in the military be I do believe they are greatly underpaid (or more that entry level inexperienced folks are overpaid) but you left out some very important things like free health care for life via the VA system plus the numerous other benefits (the GI bill, the assistance they are entitled to when purchasing a home, etc...). Those benefits are worth an incredible amount. Just look at the health care. I personally pay well over a thousand dollars a month for health care. That alone would take that annual salary of that E1 private from $18,378 to over $30K. Now again, I'm not saying they are paid enough but lets include a total compensation package here. And before you go to the burger flipper will have insurance too thanks to our dear leader, keep in mind, burger flipper ain't working 30 hrs a week because corporate America isn't as stupid as our government.

[Doc]

oops, sorry...I didn't read Brian's post before posting. His is much more informative.

[jazyd]

Burger flippers are pushing for $15 an hour every where, including here in Miss.

The point I get is burger flippers are entry level jobs meant for part time employees, not someone who wants 40 hours a week, and benefits. And one reads way too often about said flipper having worked at the arches for ten years and making .29 cents over min, that is their fault. Even if flipper works 30 hours, flipper will make over $20,000 a year to screw up my order. Plus my burger combo will go to $10, at which time I no longer buy burgers and if many follow suit, flipper is out of a job and living off the Feds. Plus flipper probably already qualifies for food stamps, free housing, free medical, free phone, free utilities. So flipper gets all the same freebies as the military gets but won't have to go on. 20 mile hikes, get shot still, get yelled at, live in a big building with 39 other guys all snoring while sleeping on a terrible bed or sleeping bag.

That military guy keeps that flippers butt safe while flipper wears his stupid pants below his butt and waddles while holding his pants up with one hand

[Doc]

Burger flippers are pushing for $15 an hour every where, including here in Miss.

The point I get is burger flippers are entry level jobs meant for part time employees, not someone who wants 40 hours a week, and benefits. And one reads way too often about said flipper having worked at the arches for ten years and making .29 cents over min, that is their fault. Even if flipper works 30 hours, flipper will make over $20,000 a year to screw up my order. Plus my burger combo will go to $10, at which time I no longer buy burgers and if many follow suit, flipper is out of a job and living off the Feds. Plus flipper probably already qualifies for food stamps, free housing, free medical, free phone, free utilities. So flipper gets all the same freebies as the military gets but won't have to go on. 20 mile hikes, get shot still, get yelled at, live in a big building with 39 other guys all snoring while sleeping on a terrible bed or sleeping bag.

That military guy keeps that flippers butt safe while flipper wears his stupid pants below his butt and waddles while holding his pants up with one hand

I get that but the comparison was dumb. Comparing it to a person working for the military wasn't a good one. It was a classic apple to oranges comparison. No doubt the burger flipper is over paid and the veteran underpaid but when you make invalid comparisons it hurts the argument. Believe me, I'm against a $15.00 minimum wage, and I don't believe you could EVER pay our military people enough.

[Darrell KSR]

Choosing the military can be an excellent career choice. My brother-in-law does far better than I do with his background, training and military benefits in his career-after-military. My son has an 18-year old young man coaching his summer basketball team who has selected the Naval Academy to play his college ball, over SEC schools that were recruiting him locally. I talked to him about it, and even though his father/grandfather played professional basketball, he saw a career of 40 years in the Navy that would be a terrific life and excellent benefits. He calculated the numbers and said it was an $x scholarship offer the way he saw it.

My nephew also went into the Air Force--he was not a good student, but smart, and undisciplined. Learned a specialty there, and came out, and without a college degree, makes a great income, about double the average median income in his area and does very well.

Those are examples that don't really speak to the entry level military analogy given above. I just wanted to point out that the military can be a great career choice, either permanently, or as a learning tool to provide skills, be paid while you train, and get the very best training offered in a particular area.

[kingcat]

I certainly don't begrudge the military at all but the most successful group in my area are military and military retirees. It is a lucrative profession when made such. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Most here drive Beamers, and 50,000/75,000 dollar trucks, and live in 1/4 million dollar homes (and more). Even short term guys do very well for themselves.

On the other hand you have a below the national median populace who have struggled for the most part as the dependance on troops stationed at Fort Knox has seen such inconsistency
Point is, there are many young people who have found it hard to get their priorities and lives in order resulting in poor choices that find them in their mid twenties with responsibilities preventing their ability to go to college and in many cases finish high school and pursue a high paying career.

They can be some of the hardest workers you will find. And quite a few are delivering pizzas and working at Mickey D's to live up to their responsibilities.

And if they can do a great job at Mickey D's they deserve the jobs more than the sons and daughters of wealthy military retirees who force them to work for a life lesson more than a need.. The very workers who mess your orders up and quit their jobs leaving an establishment shorthanded and service lacking.

I have zero sympathy for establishments who use these 10 hour a week, often coddled youths rather than pay a young man or woman a decent and fair wage for a job well done and loyalty to their employer.

It's not all black and white I know and situations vary, but these fast food places and other entry level jobs are important to the poor, which "you will always have with you"

An education is easier to achieve than ever, but don't be deceived into thinking only the lazy or mentally deficient population struggle. A man should be paid for the sweat on his brow and pride he takes in doing his job correctly.

God bless the military, and God bless the working man and woman. And let the corporation absorb most of a loss if someone must. It's a free country and they can always do something more profitable if they are not the lazy sort.

God giveth..and God can take away our blessings if we don't see them for what they are...and don't view them as a credit to our superiority to those less fortunate.

And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury

Besides, Christ says they will inherit this earth and we of a better station in this life just may find ourselves working for them

[badrose]

I have been in retail of some sort most of my life and it's a mixed bag. Some employees take pride in their work but I would say most put some kind of fixed value on their work/pay scale and it doesn't necessarily get better as the wage goes up. Quality and quantity are adjusted to what the employee feels their pay justifies. Taking it out in theft of product or service is in the mix as well. Pride does not enter into the equation for many. The sense of entitlement does.

[jazyd]

I certainly don't begrudge the military at all but the most successful group in my area are military and military retirees. It is a lucrative profession when made such. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Most here drive Beamers, and 50,000/75,000 dollar trucks, and live in 1/4 million dollar homes (and more). Even short term guys do very well for themselves.

On the other hand you have a below the national median populace who have struggled for the most part as the dependance on troops stationed at Fort Knox has seen such inconsistency
Point is, there are many young people who have found it hard to get their priorities and lives in order resulting in poor choices that find them in their mid twenties with responsibilities preventing their ability to go to college and in many cases finish high school and pursue a high paying career.

They can be some of the hardest workers you will find. And quite a few are delivering pizzas and working at Mickey D's to live up to their responsibilities.

And if they can do a great job at Mickey D's they deserve the jobs more than the sons and daughters of wealthy military retirees who force them to work for a life lesson more than a need.. The very workers who mess your orders up and quit their jobs leaving an establishment shorthanded and service lacking.

I have zero sympathy for establishments who use these 10 hour a week, often coddled youths rather than pay a young man or woman a decent and fair wage for a job well done and loyalty to their employer.

It's not all black and white I know and situations vary, but these fast food places and other entry level jobs are important to the poor, which "you will always have with you"

An education is easier to achieve than ever, but don't be deceived into thinking only the lazy or mentally deficient population struggle. A man should be paid for the sweat on his brow and pride he takes in doing his job correctly.

God bless the military, and God bless the working man and woman. And let the corporation absorb most of a loss if someone must. It's a free country and they can always do something more profitable if they are not the lazy sort.

God giveth..and God can take away our blessings if we don't see them for what they are...and don't view them as a credit to our superiority to those less fortunate.

And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury

Besides, Christ says they will inherit this earth and we of a better station in this life just may find ourselves working for them

King, have you ever worked in retail or owned one or a McD'S? If anyone stays at a McD more than a year or after college for what they pay, that is their problem, not mine or yours. They have no incentive to get ahead, just looking for whatever check they get plus what the government gives them free. Sorry, but your analogy doesn't work.
Those retired military guys are all former officers, college educated, making less than what they would have made in many cases in the private sector.
That versus you quoted is not for those with their hands out from the government, it is for the widows that cannot support themselves, which my church, my sunday school class and myself have supported through donations.
While you are looking at those Beamers, trying looking at what some of those' poor government fed' people are driving, their cash, their free phones, their purses, I see it every day in my store. Many drive much better vehichles than my 2002 Suburban with 311,000 miles or my wifes 2006 Honda Accord. They eat out a lot. I have seen them use their 'food stampsl or whatever they are called now' for ribeye steaks, gallons of ice cream, minnows at the convenience store, and yet feed their kids chips and cokes. Do I feel sorry for them, in most cases no, many refuse to work vs getting the tit from the government. I have a friend who owns a restaurant and he has had two employees refuse a raise because it would put them above the amount they could make and get a earned income tax credit of $3500. They know the system and they work it. I have friends who are nurses and they tell me that the women will brag to them how to work the system, have another baby and collect more money while sitting on their ass doing nothing.
If they have any brains, any initiative at McD or any place like that, they can get promoted to mgr quickly, most don't. Then you have the students who use it to make spending money until they are out of school. They do not deserve $15 an hour, nor do any of us need to pay $10 for a lousy combo there, I won't because I will refuse to eat at any of those places any longer, like others will do and then they will lose their jobs as there will be cut backs. In Oregon and other places, restaurants have already closed or cut way back on help. YOU pay for those raises, not the employer.
If you think Obama and Dems care about the poor, you are vastly mistaken. They care about their vote, keep them uneducated, living off the government regardless of fraud and keep that vote, plus union contracts are tied to that raise, and we all know who the unions support.
If they raise the min to $10.10 an hour, I am closing my doors. I cannot increase my business by $55,000 a year to cover that cost, nor do any of my employees do enough to pay that amount, and I would have to pass on a large increase in prices to cover that amount of money, 10% increase i nprices just to break even.
But if you have plenty of money, then push for it because YOU will pay for it everywhere you shop.
It will kill small businesses like ours, it will hurt high school students getting part time jobs.
And those pizza delivery guys, might want to look at what they make. A friend from church did it, college educated, made $40,000 a year delivering those papa john pizza's, didn't report everything he got in tips. not bad

[kingcat]

I interact with the military and the poor every day of my life. I live a half mile from the Gold Vault. ;)

Admittedly though, some people are just bad people. There have been the type you describe under every Republican and Democratic leader in history. And they are all after the vote to an extent.

Still, I respectfully believe you are throwing out the baby with the bath water when discussing the poor who struggle to make ends meet.

Depending on what one considers a struggle, very few struggling individuals own McDonald franchises. And many such businesses use part time workers to avoid paying a proper wage and benefits. At our local fast food giant from 4:00 pm until closing you will find at least 12 to 15 kids working with maybe two supervisors at most.
Now, those 15 kids do the work of three or four good men and women, but do so without inflicting a responsibility on the owner to provide those benefits or a decent wage.

My mother worked at McDonalds in Radcliff when they first opened here for about two or three years. I'd guess around 1973. I recall she attended meetings every week on how to improve service and discussing how to improve working conditions, etc... She loved that job.

Honestly, we were not wealthy and needed the added income. My father only had a seventh grade education and yet worked as hard as any man I have ever seen to support us as best he could. Those type stories are still being written to this day no matter how far we remove ourselves from them.

All I'm saying is, there are many needy and deserving among "those' poor government fed' people" As a matter of fact they out number them by a whole heck of a lot.
No offense intended, but anyone who doesn't believe that has not been out in the real world imho.

I understand that socioeconomic situations vary across the country however. But "the poor" includes many more than just those who are unable or unwilling to work. And I'd like to think many Dems and Republicans alike care about the poor. That's why this Dem is defending the poor who might have to rely on an entry level job to survive.

Then again, I don't care if MickeyD's goes bottoms up personally. I'm a Rallys and Arbys guy.

Don't get me wrong..there are some fine military people in this area...and some real pieces of..,work too. I know one military retiree who was in the military for six months and received an undesirable discharge. He claims to have contracted Hep C from the needles used by the army back in the seventies and has drawn full retirement and benefits for the last 10 years.
He was poor up until then.
Now he may have, as the army pleaded no contest, but thee fact is there is often a thin line, a dollar, or a day that separates the good eggs and bad eggs n society.

There are a lot of poor people in this area struggling to make ends meet, and there are some poor by choice you might say.

I just believe things are not so cut and dried as you make them out to be, imho. And I am confident the Lord shares my concern.

I'll back out of the conversation though. Not an inviting place for anything termed Democratic ya' know. :)

[CGWildcat]

Well isn't this an interesting conversation.... :)

As kingcat says above, "things are not so cut and dried." We can all speak from personal knowledge of this person at McDs or the military and what they make, drive, do for a job, etc. Lots of good points have been made on both sides of the discussion. Let me throw my POV in since I did the military for 27 years.

Our pay sucks! We are constantly told to do more with less, while enduring that 1% pay raise a year and 2% on a really good year. Yes, free medical/dental, etc. Helps immensely. Once retired though....forget it. Someone mentioned free VA care for life. That's ONLY if the VA rates you with a service connected disability above 30% and if I remember correctly, it can go to 50% based off your initial diagnosis. If below those amounts, you are required to pay a portion of cost, (yes minimal), but still out of pocket.

TRICARE coverage....not a lot of doctors accept. Why? Becasue it's a government based insurance and by lay it cannot pay out more than Medicare. Therefore, docs who dont accept medicare because it's not lucrative for them, dont accept tricare. YES, there are those that I know personally, that say "Screw Tricare and what they pay!" I'll take it and help the AD and Vet out regardless. Bless them! Our medical costs are THROUGH THE ROOF not only for retiree but for AD as well, but I digress.

In today's military environment, incoming kids receive A LOT of direction regarding finances, health and wellness, and support. Those things were nowhere near what they are now in 84 when I joined. I have a 19 yr old sitting in front of me in the classroom and just this morning she was discussing how she has already set up a retirement account for herself....a what?? Good for her!!!

I can't speak to the McDs of today. When I joined I was working for Stnaley Steemer and Burger King and happy to get out of there! Before I left for boot, my dad sat me down and said the only thing they cant take away from you is your education. Get as much of it as you possibly can. I left with a BS and MS and no student debt, plus my GI Bill still available to me (which I'm now using for a 3rd degree). If it was a true retirement there would be no need for me to work afterwards. Yes I drive a 2012 Charger. I have a nice house that I rent. The VA lending service wont help me where I am. Why? because a $410,000 home (the max they can lend me) wont buy me a pot to pee in sonoma county CA. Current home was last appraised in the 750K range and it's nothing fancy. Yes I choose to live here, or better said, my wife chooses to live here. I can leave anytime but she'll keep half of everything and not move, so it's best to stay.

If you are a Captain (USN/USCG) O-6 and above who retires, with 25-30+ years, your monthly retirement is going to be 10K+/month. If you retire at E-7 or above on the enlisted side, your monthly retirement is in the 2500/4000K a month range. Depending on where you live, thats all doable.

I'm rambling, I know, bottom line. Many examples provided are the outliers. No way will raising the minimum wage help this country. Many may turn to the military, but they are cutting their numbers like crazy and if you don't have "it" they won't take you. If you get stupid after they do take you, they are cutting their losses in many different ways and putting you out.

[CitizenBBN]

Lexington is considering raising the minimum wage to $10/hr. I didn't even know they had that authority, and I'm convinced they shouldn't have it (and don't have it if we go by the Constitution).

But the minimum wage is right down there with tariffs on the economic intelligence scale, and disadvantages a lot of people that never get counted as having been hurt.

[kingcat]

Some areas you find the cost of living is near double what it is in others.

For rural Kentucky, fifteen dollars as a minimum wage an hour is not a rational goal. Nine or ten bucks would be a fair minimum wage imho.

In other areas a quarter million dollar home is a one bedroom loft. In other words my input in this conversation centers around life in the Radcliff, Vine Grove, E-Town, Fort Knox areas.

Though we generalize here , I'd wager it is strikingly different across different areas of the country.

[Edward100]

My grandson graduated from high school. I did some research on the Internet. The cost of housing, medical, food, transportation and other items from here in Owensboro, Kentucky compared to the benefits of the military was eye opening. It figured out that he would have to earn over $18.00 an hour to equal the military pay. There a few $18.00 jobs here.