Execution methods

[Darrell KSR]

I'm probably one of the few here who is opposed to the death penalty, while recognizing that there are some people on this earth that just need to go away. Those are inconsistent principles, but that's a conflict I just have.

In any event, with Utah bringing back the firing squad as an alternative method of capital punishment, it made me think of, "if" capital punishment is to be employed, what execution methods should be employed?

I know the argument already. The people being executed (at least, many of them) are monsters. They aren't human. They don't deserve humane treatment. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I don't agree with you. But that's ok.

In the event that you belieive that execution should be done humanely, which of the methods is the most humane?

I think it's the firing squad.

Five shooters, four with a bullet, and one with a blank, fire simultaneously. Assuming good faith, they almost always hit the heart (which is targeted on the body), and death occurs nearly immediately.

Isn't that the "best" way? (I also am in favor of one blank, where nobody "knows" if they were the one that killed the person. That is somewhat important to me, although I don't know why).

I don't like lethal injection (seems kinda weird, not done by a doctor, have had some issues with non-medical people doing it, screws up the internal organs so they can't be donated). I don't like electrocution (sizzling flesh, multiple attempts to get the job done, apparent anguish and pain on the death row inmate being executed, including defectation, eyeballs popping out, etc.). I don't like gas chamber (pain, eyeballs issues, etc.)

I'm not particularly squeamish, and as I said, I'm already opposed to the death penalty. But isn't the firing squad the "best" method, if we are to attempt to employ the most humane method?

[suncat05]

I am not against any method of execution. I do believe some are better and more 'humane' than others. I have always thought that lethal injection was the best, safest, most humane method. I honestly had never thought about organ damage, and that is a very valid point. As far as it being humane, what better way to do it than by lethal injection? Sedate the individual, and then administer the necessary chemicals to finish the execution. But every person is different, and apparently some people's bodies do not react as positively to the chemicals as others do.
Not fond of electrocution. Again, the amount of amps needed to do the job correctly varies between individuals and their tolerance to electrical current. And I don't like the smell of charred human flesh, one of the worst and most sickening odors a human being can ever have to be exposed to.
I have no aversion to hanging, as long as it is done correctly. From a gallows, not any other means. If done correctly, with the individual dropping upon release of the trapdoor, death probably should be almost instantaneous.
But the firing squad would probably be my preferred method of any methods available. Six shooters, one blank and five live rounds, fired by capable marksmen from rifles in good condition from close proximity, death would be instantaneous.
Or use the time tested Italian Mafia or Russian method of a bullet to the back of the head. Instant death.

None of these methods, to include lethal injection, is really truly 'humane'. After all we're discussing the taking of another human being's life. Not a pleasant conversation, to be sure. So, in my mind, whatever method ends the individual's life in the quickest, most expedient manner possible is the most desirable.

This is a very tough and thought provocative subject with no easy answers.

[elicat]

I'm a little weird about this. I'm basically with you, Darrell. I'm opposed to more executions than not, but do think it needs to be an option. I am steadfastly opposed to doing executions as fake medical procedures.

And I'm in favor of the firing squad, because it involves multiple executioners, who I would want to be ordinary citizens. I think the members of the firing squad should be selected at random from members of the community, like a jury pool. Vet them, and train them to do the task at hand. And then do it in public.

I think that approach would clarify for the community what it is we are doing: the community is purging itself of a member who has forfeited the right to live in society. We would do a lot fewer of them, and we would be very clear on what it means when we do.

[dan_bgblue]

The best idea on the subject to date, imo, and I fully agree with the thoughts.


And I'm in favor of the firing squad, because it involves multiple executioners, who I would want to be ordinary citizens. I think the members of the firing squad should be selected at random from members of the community, like a jury pool. Vet them, and train them to do the task at hand. And then do it in public.

I think that approach would clarify for the community what it is we are doing: the community is purging itself of a member who has forfeited the right to live in society. We would do a lot fewer of them, and we would be very clear on what it means when we do.

I would have absolutely no qualms about taking another persons life to save my own, the lives of family members or friends, and the lives of innocents, at the moment it needed to occur. On the other hand, I would not willingly be an executioner doing a job that is mandated by law, and the job is dictated by the verdict of a jury of imperfect individuals like myself.

[Darrell KSR]

Very thoughtful comments from everyone.

[CitizenBBN]

I think either firing squad or hanging. Hanging used to be like the others, sometimes didn't work well, but it apparently has to do with how you tie the knot. that's why you see them all look like they do, apparently with that and enough weight it snaps the neck immediately, which is of course immediate death and no pain.

But firing squad works fine too, and I think they are the two best.

As for doing it, yeah, I could if I were involved in the case and knew the facts. I wouldn't want a system where the state just tells you to kill someone and you do it b/c you were following orders. There are some fascinating studies on that done in the 50s and it's scary enough without making it real IMO. BUT, if I were on the jury and I was the one who convicted him, yeah, I'd do it. Pretty weak to be willing to condemn him to death but not be willing to stand up and do what it takes to make it happen.

I do believe there are acts people can commit that demand they no longer live in our society, and for which death is a fine punishment. If we lock them all up forever fine, but it's a large use of resources and I don't really see that as terribly more humane either. We all live within the social contract, and if you break the contract you can lose your rights under it, and life is one of those rights.

It's not an issue that really keeps me up at night. Now, letting these SOBs out does, and not pursuing them and tolerating crime in our society as some accepted norm, that sets me off fast, but how we keep them out of society to me is less than just keeping them out.

But yeah, Firing squad works for me, but I'm good with public hanging too, right down on the court house square. I do believe in the idea of the community as a whole facing the decision and making their peace with it that way. It certainly makes it abundantly clear what we find unacceptable as a society and requires we all face it. The current system just throws people in a hole so we don't have to deal with them or the situation that led to what they did, or how to address it, etc. We get off easy and sweep it away.

We have the largest incarceration rate in the world and no one seems concerned about it. That's rug sweeping if ever I saw it.

[Doc]

I don't get the "botched" execution thing. I've literally euthanized hundreds if not thousands of animals and not once has one ever failed to die. I've had them not go as smoothly as possible but considering some of the circumstances such as a rabid animal that is trying to bite you, well its understandable. However the actual procedure itself is pretty foolproof. There really isn't a different people react different to different drug situation here. You give enough to do the job. Only time I every had somebody underdose got me bit bad (I was in school and the school was stingy on the "blue juice", plus the other student under calculated the dose, I was holding the dog, the pit bull got half the calculated dose and nailed me--had to be pried off my hand, I took 5 stitches and he had to be tested for rabies).

There are many solutions. If the individual wants to allow their organs to be donated then you anesthetize, harvest then euthanize. If not, then you just euthanize with phenobarbitol and potassium bromide. It works 100% of the time. Gas chambers are not a palatable one. Seen that done with animals and I don't consider that humane. Also not a fan of firing squad or hanging.

[Darrell KSR]

Doc, everything you said makes sense, except....botched lethal injections occur. I don't know why. They shouldn't, but there have been bunches of cases of them. Here's a few.

(Link at the bottom to botched executions -- 2 asphyxiations, 10 electrocutions, 32 lethal injections, 1 attempted lethal injection.)


April 29, 2014. Oklahoma. The execution “was like a horror movie,” witnesses said. The warden at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary described the inside of the death chamber as ”a bloody mess.” Clayton Lockett, a condemned man convicted of murdering a 19-year-old and having her buried alive, spent his final moments groaning, writhing and bucking on a gurney. Unable set up a viable intravenous line anywhere else, doctors searched for an available vein in Lockett’s groin. Instead of finding a vein, the executioner punched an artery. 43 minutes for him to die.

July 23, 2014. Arizona. Joseph R. Wood. Lethal Injection. After the chemicals were injected, Mr. Wood repeatedly gasped for one hour and 40 minutes before death was pronounced. During the ordeal, Mr. Wood’s attorneys filed an emergency appeal to a Federal District Court and placed a phone call to Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy in a failed effort to halt the botched execution. A reporter for the Arizona Republic who witnessed the execution, Michael Kiefer, said that he counted 640 gasps from Wood before he finally died.

Jan. 16, 2014. Ohio. Dennis McGuire. Lethal Injection. McGuire gasped for air for some 25 minutes while the drugs used in the execution, hydromorphone and midazolam, slowly took effect. Witnesses reported that after the drugs were injected, McGuire was struggling, with his stomach heaving and fist clenched, making “horrible” snorting and choking sounds.

December 13, 2006. Florida. Angel Diaz. Lethal Injection. After the first injection was administered, Mr. Diaz continued to move, and was squinting and grimacing as he tried to mouth words. A second dose was then administered, and 34 minutes passed before Mr. Diaz was declared dead. At first a spokesperson for the Florida Department of Corrections claimed that this was because Mr. Diaz had some sort of liver disease. After performing an autopsy, the Medical Examiner, Dr. William Hamilton, stated that Mr. Diaz’s liver was undamaged, but that the needle had gone through Mr. Diaz’s vein and out the other side, so the deadly chemicals were injected into soft tissue, rather than the vein. Two days after the execution, Governor Jeb Bush suspended all executions in the state and appointed a commission “to consider the humanity and constitutionality of lethal injections.” In 2014, pictures from the autopsy of Mr. Diaz’s body, along with a long article describing his painful death, were published in THE NEW REPUBLIC.

December 13, 1988. Texas. Raymond Landry. Lethal Injection. Pronounced dead 40 minutes after being strapped to the execution gurney and 24 minutes after the drugs first started flowing into his arms. Two minutes after the drugs were administered, the syringe came out of Landry's vein, spraying the deadly chemicals across the room toward witnesses. The curtain separating the witnesses from the inmate was then pulled, and not reopened for fourteen minutes while the execution team reinserted the catheter into the vein. Witnesses reported "at least one groan." A spokesman for the Texas Department of Correction, Charles Brown (sic), said, "There was something of a delay in the execution because of what officials called a 'blowout.' The syringe came out of the vein, and the warden ordered the (execution) team to reinsert the catheter into the vein."

May 24, 1989. Texas. Stephen McCoy. Lethal Injection. He had such a violent physical reaction to the drugs (heaving chest, gasping, choking, back arching off the gurney, etc.) that one of the witnesses (male) fainted, crashing into and knocking over another witness. Houston attorney Karen Zellars, who represented McCoy and witnessed the execution, thought the fainting would catalyze a chain reaction. The Texas Attorney General admitted the inmate "seemed to have a somewhat stronger reaction," adding "The drugs might have been administered in a heavier dose or more rapidly."

September 12, 1990. Illinois. Charles Walker. Lethal Injection. Because of equipment failure and human error, Walker suffered excruciating pain during his execution. According to Gary Sutterfield, an engineer from the Missouri State Prison who was retained by the State of Illinois to assist with Walker's execution, a kink in the plastic tubing going into Walker's arm stopped the deadly chemicals from reaching Walker. In addition, the intravenous needle was inserted pointing at Walker's fingers instead of his heart, prolonging the execution.

March 10, 1992. Oklahoma. Robyn Lee Parks. Lethal Injection. Parks had a violent reaction to the drugs used in the lethal injection. Two minutes after the drugs were dispensed, the muscles in his jaw, neck, and abdomen began to react spasmodically for approximately 45 seconds. Parks continued to gasp and violently gag until death came, some eleven minutes after the drugs were first administered. Tulsa World reporter Wayne Greene wrote that the execution looked "painful and ugly," and "scary." "It was overwhelming, stunning, disturbing -- an intrusion into a moment so personal that reporters, taught for years that intrusion is their business, had trouble looking each other in the eyes after it was over.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/some-examples-post-furman-botched-executions

[PedroDaGr8]

Personally, in principle I'm on the fence about execution. In reality, having seen so many cases where the prosecutor commited misconduct or an innocent man was on death row, I can in no way support it. Even one innocent man put to death is unacceptable to me.

Since we are I think nitrogen asphyxiation would be much more humane than any of these. The person basically goes to sleep, there is no build up of CO2, which means no inate panic brought on by build up of CO2 in the brain. Just a sleepiness that overcomes them until they pass out, continued until they are dead. It takes much longer though, so I imagine that isn't palatable.

[Doc]

Doc, everything you said makes sense, except....botched lethal injections occur. I don't know why. They shouldn't, but there have been bunches of cases of them. Here's a few.


Yes, they occur but they shouldn't. I've never understood WHY they occur. Its not a hard thing to do. I suspect they occur for the same reason that so many other things get botch....government intervention. How hard is it to kill something? Pretty damn easy if you ask me.

But I suspect some of those are witness accounts where the accounts are exaggerated based on emotions. Occasionally there are reflex reactions that are not comfortable to witness such as twitches, gasping, vocalization, etc. that are reflex and not expressions of pain or agony. To an observer, they may seem as such or to somebody who isn't in favor of capital punishment, they may be seen as cruel, so I'll take their accounts with a grain of salt.

In all the accounts listed, taken at face value, the problem appears to be the catheters were incorrectly placed. I've often wondered why they don't anesthetize the "patient" prior with an intramuscular injection then place a catheter to insure proper placement. I do that all the time. Heck, you can even do a "cut down" and place it surgically if need be.

[Darrell KSR]

You have to believe there's a better/more efficient way to administer that lethal injection. Just has to be, doesn't it?

[kingcat]

I don't believe in the death penalty unless enacted within one month of the crime and only with multiple eyewitnesses to said crime. In such cases rights to defense should be limited to the short time frame.
Firing squad would be the best method I think.

Also, any official,or prosecutor and/or judge who is proven to have mistakenly pursued and enacted the death of a criminal should be subject to the law just as it pertains to vigilante justice. All the way to murder one if intent is proven to a jury.

But for the latter and those who wrongfully pursue the death penalty for a citizen and are found guilty in the same time frame allotted the public, death (by squashing perhaps) seems reasonable.

There would be no wrongful executions nor appeals, and justice would earn the respect of the people it requires to work at maximum efficiently.

[suncat05]

I am with kingcat on the 2nd part of his post. Any official of any rank or standing that falsifies/lies/or constructs false evidence against another person deserves the most severe punishment possible.
That is why the background investigations for police candidates has to be so thorough, as it should be for others seeking positions of public service and the trust we place in them to do such an important job to protect us.
The same standard should apply to politicians, but we all know that isn't always done as evidenced by the resident living at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington D.C.
We have become way too comfortable with many facets of our lives. Too few are held accountable for the harm they do, misleading everyone is deemed acceptable, and those who are captured and prosecuted and convicted never seem to receive the level of punishment that they truly deserve. JMHO. Yours may differ.

[Doc]

I am with kingcat on the 2nd part of his post. Any official of any rank or standing that falsifies/lies/or constructs false evidence against another person deserves the most severe punishment possible.
That is why the background investigations for police candidates has to be so thorough, as it should be for others seeking positions of public service and the trust we place in them to do such an important job to protect us.
The same standard should apply to politicians, but we all know that isn't always done as evidenced by the resident living at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington D.C.
We have become way too comfortable with many facets of our lives. Too few are held accountable for the harm they do, misleading everyone is deemed acceptable, and those who are captured and prosecuted and convicted never seem to receive the level of punishment that they truly deserve. JMHO. Yours may differ.


That's because the individuals believe that the ends justify the means. If you want to look at politics, the left believes so strongly in universal health care that they were willing to do anything to pass it, even stuff that was unethical and borderline illegal. Not to say the right won't do exactly the same thing. No doubt they did it to invade Iraq. Both sides will lie and deceive because they believe the outcome is the correct one and that people will ultimate come to see that it was the right thing to do. No different in the criminal system.

[suncat05]

I am a firm believer in the death penalty. There are some living among us who have corrupted minds that feel it is fine to kill innocent people for no reason other than because they can, or who kidnap and moleste innocent children to satiate their perversions. For these individuals, the serial murderers and pedophiles, there should be capture and incarceration, a fair trial with a jury of their fellow citizens, and should the evidence & testimony of victims & witnesses be conclusive and indesputeable, then they should be executed within a few days. Not weeks, months, or years. Within a few days.
But that's how I feel about it. Some of you may not see it in the same light as I do. Serial killers (to include terrorists) and pedophiles are people who live among us that give nothing worthwhile to our communities except pain and suffering, who wreck innocent lives and injure families, sometimes beyond healing.
These people deserve no mercy and do not deserve to live among us. JMHO. You may not see this like I do, and that's fine. But this is where I stand on this subject.

[Doc]

I am a firm believer in the death penalty. There are some living among us who have corrupted minds that feel it is fine to kill innocent people for no reason other than because they can, or who kidnap and moleste innocent children to satiate their perversions. For these individuals, the serial murderers and pedophiles, there should be capture and incarceration, a fair trial with a jury of their fellow citizens, and should the evidence & testimony of victims & witnesses be conclusive and indesputeable, then they should be executed within a few days. Not weeks, months, or years. Within a few days.
But that's how I feel about it. Some of you may not see it in the same light as I do. Serial killers (to include terrorists) and pedophiles are people who live among us that give nothing worthwhile to our communities except pain and suffering, who wreck innocent lives and injure families, sometimes beyond healing.
These people deserve no mercy and do not deserve to live among us. JMHO. You may not see this like I do, and that's fine. But this is where I stand on this subject.

I'd add Duke fans.