Could you be more disrespectful to your own troops?

[CitizenBBN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx4FZrd3-DA

Not to mention his not even knowing how to pronounce "corpsman".

[Doc]

I've always felt that a non-military individual, or even a military person in civilian clothing saluating was disrespectful or at least odd. I put this incident more as a gaffe than disrespectful. Simple as not having enough hands for his coffee. I got WAY more thing to bash him over. Things like being incompetent.

[BigBluePappy]

I try not to post too much on this board for obvious reasons.
But.
I heard a diatribe on this subject yesterday, while I was stuck in Lousyville traffic by one Terry Meiners, defending this man, I can't even bear to call him by his proper title right now of Commander-In--Chief or Mr. President, over the objection of someone who has served and emailed him their concerns with this half-assed salute.
Mr. Meiners said he had a coat he's holding in his left hand and arm; I see no such thing.
Being the son of a military man, I can tell you this was way beyond wrong and disrespectful, it was sinful.
The Commander-In-Chief sets an exemplary mark to strive for, well we know where he stands on this.
Please let us send a message that this type of, insert favorite euphemism for s**t here, will not be tolerated anymore. Not from our so-called leaders or anyone else.

Needless to say, I did not listen in today and Mr. Meiner's has lost a listener since back in the Ron Clay and Terry Meiners day.

[dan_bgblue]

He is the commander in chief of all the US military forces. Even if he does not wear a military uniform, he is their supreme commander and should respect that rank and treat the enlisted men in military fashion. They sure as hell deserve that amount of respect from him

[BigBluePappy]

He is the commander in chief of all the US military forces. Even if he does not wear a military uniform, he is their supreme commander and should respect that rank and treat the enlisted men in military fashion. They sure as hell deserve that amount of respect from him

:sHa_clap2::sFl_america2:

[Doc]

He is the commander in chief of all the US military forces. Even if he does not wear a military uniform, he is their supreme commander and should respect that rank and treat the enlisted men in military fashion. They sure as hell deserve that amount of respect from him

Oh, I agree. He should show him the same amout of respect they show him, no doubt. What I'm saying is the tradition of the President saluting is a stupid one IMO. It was started by Reagan as a show of respect and has been repeated since with multiple gaffes and times comical attempts. Ask me, the President even though he is the "commander in cheif" isn't typically military trained and thus his usage of military traditions looks more like a mockery than respectful.

[dan_bgblue]

Thanks for the Reagan tid bit. I have a memory of President Kennedy saluting the honor guard at the tomb of the unknown soldier during the wreath laying ceremony. I thought it was standard procedure for the President to salute the troops, at least in public occasions.

[jazyd]

Miners is either a liar, blind or completely stupid

All he had to do was put his cup in his left hand but he would prefer to show how he feels about the military, disrespectful


I try not to post too much on this board for obvious reasons.
But.
I heard a diatribe on this subject yesterday, while I was stuck in Lousyville traffic by one Terry Meiners, defending this man, I can't even bear to call him by his proper title right now of Commander-In--Chief or Mr. President, over the objection of someone who has served and emailed him their concerns with this half-assed salute.
Mr. Meiners said he had a coat he's holding in his left hand and arm; I see no such thing.
Being the son of a military man, I can tell you this was way beyond wrong and disrespectful, it was sinful.
The Commander-In-Chief sets an exemplary mark to strive for, well we know where he stands on this.
Please let us send a message that this type of, insert favorite euphemism for s**t here, will not be tolerated anymore. Not from our so-called leaders or anyone else.

Needless to say, I did not listen in today and Mr. Meiner's has lost a listener since back in the Ron Clay and Terry Meiners day.

[Doc]

Thanks for the Reagan tid bit. I have a memory of President Kennedy saluting the honor guard at the tomb of the unknown soldier during the wreath laying ceremony. I thought it was standard procedure for the President to salute the troops, at least in public occasions.



If you recall, and I'm sure you do, Kennedy was in the military (navy). That is where he learned the proper salute protocol.

[MTcatfan]

If you are a supporter most would say simple mistake...if you dislike the President then most would say it was disrespectful to the troops. Personally I call it a really dumb, easily avoidable mistake, that hopefully won't be repeated again.


Funny thing is how hypocritical talking heads are...Carl Rove asked if Bush would have ever done something like this he goes on a name calling diatribe about the President, and then says of course not...well Bush never saluted with a latte in his hand...he just saluted with a dog in his hand, so it was a head bent over mouth basically on the dog left handed salute.

The there is some dude, don't know his name, I think he is a midday FoxNews guy, who goes on a diatribe about how disrespectful it was and how it disrespects the troops that fight and die for this country and the latte salute is terribly disrespectful. Then during the same show the panel is discussing the woman fighter pilot that lead a bombing raid on ISIS and the same guy who was so bent out of shape at Obama disrespecting the troops asks the panel if you should call the raid "boobs on the ground" instead of bombs on the ground. So I guess it is okay for him to be way more disrespectful to our troops than the latte salute ever was.


Man all this vitriol is so tiring...so if a conservative gets elected President and I going to have to listen to liberals disrespect the President for 4 or 8 years? I am not sure I can handle 8 more years of people unabashedly disrespecting the office of the President just because they didn't vote for him. I mean Bush the second term got disrespected, now Obama is probably 10 times worse than Bush, so does this mean the next President is going to be disrespected 20, 50, 100 times worse than Obama...I just get so tired of it...I may disagree with the person in the office of the President, but damn it I still respect them for being the democratically elected President, and I will even if it someone I can't stand elected next election.

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, I don't respect Obama at all for reasons far beyond not voting for him. And no I don't respect him at all. He's the first President I'll say that about, but he's not a liberal or conservative, he's a product of the wholly anti-American 60s fringe and has no respect for me as a citizen. The lack of respect didnt' start with me this time, I'm just returning it.

the "democratically elected" part doesn't mean a whole lot to me either. This nation wasn't founded to insure democracy, it was founded to insure liberty. Democracy just happened to be the best form of government we could come up with to insure that liberty, but it was a means to an end, not the goal. Democracy has generated some colossal failures, it's quite imperfect. We have to observe the process and respect it in that we won't abandon the rule of law, but I don't think the elected officials it cranks out get some kind of automatic respect simply for having won the election. Lots of very dumb and even some very bad people have won elections.

the office does deserve a certain level of respect, but I'd call that decorum. I think one can go too far in lampooning a President for example. But observing a level of civility doesn't require respect for the person in the office IMO.

But as for this, I find it disrespectful indeed, and I find it so when it's Bush half doing it, or Obama, or whoever. I think it's more pointed when it's Obama since his policies make it clear he's not exactly "pro military", but it's a simple gesture that is not hard to get right. Either do it right or don't do it, I can live with either of those.

I can see a slip up, but it's not like any President should be surprised he'll be in that position when getting on and off Marine One, and it's not like he doesn't have the option to put something in his off hand.

I do think Obama should be particularly sensitive to such things given his policies, I doubt anyone in the military doubted Reagan's support of them versus Obama's, or Bush's, which means he needs to go the extra mile, but they should all either do it right or not do it.

[suncat05]

Having served in the U.S. Army and the Kansas Army National Guard, I have a great appreciation and respect for the military institution. I can also understand that there are many who have not served and know nothing about the military institution or its actions/decorum/practices but still have respect for the military institution itself.
And then there are many like Obama. They don't have a clue, and don't care. They have no respect for the military institution or anything it stands for.
I don't like the guy. Period. I haven't made it any secret. I respect the Office of the President of the United States of America. But it is the Office I respect, that institution, not the person. The current person holding the Office isn't deserving of any respect, as it is very clear to me that he does not honor or respect the Office he holds, nor the military institution that protects us from foreign & domestic enemies. It is just a tool for him to use at his convenience, as it is for any President. But this guy residing in our White House doesn't understand, or much less even care about the institutions he is in charge of now, unless, of course, it seves his political purposes and makes him look good.
His half-a$$ latte salute was disrespectful to BOTH the Office of the President of the United States of America and the institution of the United States Marine Corps., and to ALL AMERICANS everywhere. This guy doesn't "get it", nor does he care at all.

[kingcat]

http://cdn.business2community.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Bush_dog_salute.jpg

..Neither are appropriate. But they were probably in a preoccupied hurry and just didn't stop to think.

What's worse, Bill Clinton, George Bush, and Obama and their families all use the I love satan hand sign repeatedly.
http://www.lovethetruth.com/jis_images/bush_satan_sign.jpg

[suncat05]

With Bush I would tend to believe he's touting the "Hook 'em 'Horns" sign........ :533:

He IS from Texas, don'tcha know? :trink39:

[Darrell KSR]

4073



4074



4075

[CitizenBBN]

The first two of those are afaik technically acceptable. One can be carrying something in the other hand/arm during the salute, in fact its supposed to be moved to that position leaving the right arm/hand for the salute.

Given that the object is a dog, and may not stay perfectly still, it's not too far out of line to think that a) he would need to be carrying the dog rather than have it on a leash when getting from AF One to the limo, and b) that the dog may make it difficult to do the salute in all circumstances.

Did Obama's chai tea need to be in his right hand? was his left damaged in some way? Was it squirming and uncooperative that day?

In Bush I see an attempt to do it right, even if done awkwardly with him carrying a dog. With Obama I see a flippant disregard for the salute. obama could have done it right by simply having his drink in his other hand. Bush had a living animal he was trying to move efficiently and securely off an aircraft. could Bush have had someone else carry the dog? Sure, but given that he was carrying it I see an attempt to do it as well as he could. OBama could have done it right in a costless fashion without any added assistance or planning. Much lower threshold.

[Darrell KSR]

I dunno. When I read that General Eisenhower never saluted, I have to rethink the whole thing.

And as far as Bush is concerned--the President had to hold the dog while he saluted? You mean there's nobody else that could do it? Was he so unaware that there would be military around saluting it he simply forgot to let somebody else do it?

[suncat05]

Again, it comes down to proper, acceptable military decorum according to the rules as written. It is acceptable to be holding an object in your non-salauting hand and salute with your right hand. I don't remember which Army manual I saw that in, but I do remember reading it somewhere. So, while "W" managed to make it look entirely awkward, his salute was technically correct. The other guy, however, I suspect couldn't even put forth the effort to not do the "latte salute"..........and if you watch the video of him coming down the steps, there wasn't anything in his non-saluting hand at the moment of his faux paux.
As I said previously, he was disrespectful to the Office he holds, to the USMC, and to the American people in general.

[Darrell KSR]

I disagree with you, Suncat. (2nd EDIT - ultimately, I'll concede without understanding if necessary, as I was not in the military, and if someone who was claims it is a proper salute to hoist a dog while doing so, I will be baffled, but satisfied.)

The manual for officer candidates says that it is improper to salute, "when you are otherwise so occupied as to make saluting impractical."

Hunched over, hoisting the dog up to roughly the level of the hand, or bending over like you have stomach cramps with your dog is in the exact same ballpark in my view. Did "W" intend to be disrespectful when he did that? He clearly violated the manual.

Interestingly, the manual also says not to salute when one of the individuals is in civilian clothes. In my view, my favorite president of all-time, bar none, Ronald Reagan, blew it. They shouldn't salute, period.

EDIT--if you note, I haven't chimed in on Obama and what he did. I left that out; just focusing on other improper salutes (and yes, I firmly believe all of them are improper, based on proper military protocol and it being impractical when holding a large dog. Even a small, Paris Hilton-like dog. But I digress).

But if it makes a difference, Obama was dead wrong with his salute, make no mistake about it. He shouldn't have saluted *AT ALL.* But if he did, he is obligated to do it correctly, and he wasn't close. It was disrespectful (whether intended or not, I'll leave that to the supporters and defenders to debate).

I hope my discussion of "W" wasn't misleading, although it could have been. I wasn't suggesting two wrongs make a right.

[CitizenBBN]

No doubt someone else could have held the dog, but for any number of reasons I can see why they didn't, often b/c it's a better photo op to have him with the dog. Once he's there it's OK to still salute, I only see one there that is so strained in form as to be an issue, and there form dictates he simply doesn't salute at all.

I also don't think it's necessary for a President to salute, but I get why Reagan started it and it also makes sense. he is CiC, and it is a gesture of respect by the President for those men. It certainly isn't called for by protocol, but I get why he felt the need, post Carter and with America desperately needing to have that respect shown and communicated, that he started doing it. I don't think it's a requirement, but now that Reagan started it it will be tough for a President to stop it.

The difference to me between bush and Obama is that a) Bush seems to be in all 3 pictures sincere in trying to show a respectful acknowledgement based on his expressions whereas Obama is being flippant and dismissive IMO, and b) Obama had no requirement at all to not do it right given it was just a syrofoam cup. Bush could have done something about the dog, but changing hands with the cup is a zero-cost change, so simple there's no reason to have not done it. At least Bush had a living dog with him.

Besides the fact that the military already has a mountain of actual policy to think Obama doesn't think much of them, whereas Bush made his pro-military stance more than clear. Only Nixon can go to China, Obama needs to if anything go out of his way to show some respect to the military, they knew Bush thought highly of them already.

[Doc]

This entire thread is why IMO a president need not salute. When it goes wrong it look horrible and disrespectful. I also believe that a salute is a military tradition reserved for those who have gone through military training


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Darrell KSR]

This entire thread is why IMO a president need not salute. When it goes wrong it look horrible and disrespectful. I also believe that a salute is a military tradition reserved for those who have gone through military training


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

x2.

[Darrell KSR]

Besides the fact that the military already has a mountain of actual policy to think Obama doesn't think much of them, whereas Bush made his pro-military stance more than clear. Only Nixon can go to China, Obama needs to if anything go out of his way to show some respect to the military, they knew Bush thought highly of them already.

But see, there's the rub. People are inferring intent from a gesture based on their perceptions of what internally they believe it meant. Maybe they're right, I dunno. But I do know this. I have absent-mindedly spilled coffee on my lap while looking at my watch when someone asked me what time it was. A coffee cup becomes a part of me in the morning, without even thinking about it. Meanwhile, anytime I've carried a 30-pound dog, I kinda know it.

[CitizenBBN]

But see, there's the rub. People are inferring intent from a gesture based on their perceptions of what internally they believe it meant. Maybe they're right, I dunno. But I do know this. I have absent-mindedly spilled coffee on my lap while looking at my watch when someone asked me what time it was. A coffee cup becomes a part of me in the morning, without even thinking about it. Meanwhile, anytime I've carried a 30-pound dog, I kinda know it.

Everything people do is judged based on context. If you're otherwise a warm and outgoing person and one day you are sullen and snippy people worry what is wrong in your life. If you're sullen and snippy generally they figure you're just a jerk and if you are again that day you're still a jerk, never occurs to them what is going on in your life.

I'm fine with the PResident not saluting at all, but when I watch the video of them doing it in these various contexts yes I pick up on the subtle body language and cues that are by definition largely subjective and I see it as feeling very much in the context of Obama's general smug disregard for anything outside his very small world. Even his friends have reported on how insular he is and how dismissive he is of things, and even of them. This was a "going through the motions" action that meant nothing to him in my read of his behavior.

When I see Bush's I see a guy who I think has an earnest respect for the men he's addressing, even if he isn't doing it with the full level of attention and effort he should probably show.

I get more from their facial expressions than I do the salute itself. With Bush I see him looking at those men, his eyes specifically on them no matter his head position, eye to eye. Obama is wearing sunglasses and doesn't even look at them when he does the salute.

You can tell a lot, if not everything, from the eyes. Bush contorted himself with that dog to look them in the eye. Would have been better if he hadn't had the dog yes, but he still looked them in the eye and saluted. That tells you it means something to him. Obama was looking at the ground when he saluted after shooting the soldiers a casual glance.

I'm not a psychologist or mentalist or confidence man so I'm a rank amateur, but I see two very different mindsets in those images. The salute itself is only the circumstance of the action, it's their overall behavior and demeanor that tells the whole story.

I see an earnestness in Bush's expressions and behavior. In Obama I see the same strutting glibness I think we all know is there.

It's not limited to the military either. After all we are all just clinging to our guns and religion, he has the same view of us as he does these men he commands. I don't get all of that from one salute, but in context I think the difference is clear.

[CitizenBBN]

I meant to add that I think that overall aspect of the situation is part of the reaction we see. Certainly part is bias, I couldn't have a lower opinion of Obama and what he believes if I tried, but a lot of it isn't just the drink in his hand but the entire flow of that exchange. It looked more like a self-absorbed rock star waving to his fans than the CiC acknowledging his soldiers. The cup in the hand is only part of it, along with the flippant manner, the shades, the not looking at anyone in particular when he did it.

He comes off as removed and superior, which is convenient since that's exactly how he acts both personally and in his policies.

It just oozes casual indifference. I expect it of some Hollywood actor or rock star, not of a President.

[Doc]

It's clear to me that folks who disagree with Obama's philosophies or presidency will see this as disrespectful, and will give Bush more leeway. Both were improper and looked bafoonish. But in an attempt to score political points, Obama's latte salute is touted as disrespect. It wasn't. It was a gaffe. Something he unthinkingly did. It was not disrespectful per se. For me, even though I despise pretty much every policy Obama has, I'll give him a pass on this. It was unintentional and no big deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CitizenBBN]

It's clear to me that folks who disagree with Obama's philosophies or presidency will see this as disrespectful, and will give Bush more leeway. Both were improper and looked bafoonish. But in an attempt to score political points, Obama's latte salute is touted as disrespect.

True of some no doubt, esp. the political pundits who do this sort of thing all day every day, but I still see them as more than equal gaffes.

I find it to be a neat way to study the reading of body language, a topic I've always found interesting. Bush's were poorly executed, but it's simplistic to see them as the same. when you look at their expressions and the context there are clear differences.

Maybe Bush has video out there of him being just as flippant,it's certainly possible, but I see real differences between that video and the pics of Bush. Am I biased about Obama? You better believe it, and I said so, but its an ad hominem fallacy to dismiss my points about the differences just b/c I think Obama is the embodiment of everything this country stands against.