Secret Bozeman Urban Assault Vehicle

[bigsky]

Likely another subject suncat and I aren't going to agree on.

the police secretly apply for a grant for a "military counter-attack" vehicle often utilized in "hostile Urban Environments". they get it in time for Ferguson, Missouri, so they hide it for a few months from the city commission and the public because, well, "bad optics".

when it's discovered, the city manager calls it a "rescue vehicle".


Here are a couple of stories.

http://m.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/city/article_ae62c3c0-42ce-11e4-9529-d3702c36c0fb.html?mode=jqm

http://www.bozeman-magpie.com/perspective-full-article.php?article_id=1297

[dan_bgblue]

Other Montana cities – Missoula, Billings, Great Falls, Helena and Kalispell – have similar vehicles, he said.

Your Montana must be rife with dangerous criminals

[suncat05]

No, bigsky, we agree completely on this subject. The police in most places DO NOT need vehicles of this type.

[CitizenBBN]

“Militarization is less about equipment and more about how it’s used and how you work with your community,” Price said.

Nice theory, doesn't hold up in fact. When you give people shiny new toys they tend to take them out and play with them. If you go to the thing decked out in full gear, full auto M16 in hand, riding in your bulletproof vehicle, it will absolutely influence your state of mind.

it's psychology 101. Schools have dress codes and uniforms because they make students better behaved and better controlled. You just aren't as rowdy in a jacket and tie as you are in cut up jeans.

Same for this.

[CatinIL]

The USG just needs to ship these off to the National Guard units around the country and let the military control them. They don't need to be handed over to a bunch of Barny Fife's to play assault games with. Set up some type of agreement between local governments and the USG to "Borrow" one if the need arises. It can't be that hard.

[MTcatfan]

Uhhh...if you have to hide the fact that you purchased this thing, I think it pretty much proves you don't need it. I don't think that there is one agency in the state of Montana that could justify this type of military vehicle in civilian hands.


I know that this probably isn't a popular person on here, but John Oliver had a hilarious riff on this type of thing on his Last Week Tonight show on HBO when he did a feature about Ferguson, MO and the militarization of police forces. It featured some little town of like 1000 in New Hampshire or Vermont that got one of these vehicles, probably through the same grant process that was used by Bozeman PD, to protect their town. The grant application mentioned that it was to protect their town and county from terrorist attack, and one of the events listed for protection was their annual pumpkin festival. It also had a youtube clip of these two I assume high school kids who pull up next to one of these vehicles in some Michigan town and their amazement at the vehicle, and then they get hit by a lightning bolt of logic, and one says has __________(their town) gotten so bad that the police need one of those vehicles, and John says, nope. Then it shows a video from the Facebook page of a little town in Georgia that gets some sort of tracked military vehicle and it shows it driving around crazy like set to some horrible thrash metal soundtrack. There is also a clip from an ex-military person saying that the US Military has recommended AGAINST civilian police forces having these vehicles since they tear up the roads, and have a high rollover risk.


So if the militarization of police forces is something that interest you, you might want to check out the clip of the show. Now if you really don't agree with John's politics, but are interested in the part of this clip about police militarization and want to avoid most of the Ferguson stuff, you can go to right around 6:25 to 12:40 of the video and that is the part almost exclusively about police militarization.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A

[Doc]

http://www.bozeman-magpie.com/article_images/embedded/images/11bearcat2.jpg

Tell them its the escape vehicle for the zombie apocalypse


Uhhh...if you have to hide the fact that you purchased this thing, I think it pretty much proves you don't need it.

I absolutely agree. But if you can justify then do so. IMO it would be stupid for a town like Stuart to own one but a bigger city like Louisville or even Lexington, I could see that.

[kingcat]

That thing wouldn't last a night in the West End of Louisville.

http://freedomwallpaper.tk/wp-content/uploads/hummer-lowrider-5.jpg

[CitizenBBN]

Doc, I think we pretty much agree, but I don't see why even Lexington or Louisville would need one. What event would warrant it?

Riots? We saw in Ferguson how well that works. Unless you have enough gear to really truly repress the population they only inflame the situation, and at that level you need the national guard.

Natural disaster? What does a bulletproof MRAP help with in a flood, even a tornado?

The only one I can kinda see is a standoff situation, where you can assault a building of bad guys shooting at you. first off when's the last time that happened in Lexington? Ideally you negotiate it out, and the vast majority of the time hostages are involved so you don't do frontal assaults.

I'm sure there's some way out event where one could be useful, but it's just too small a number of them to justify having them and all the problems that come with them. I'm sure there is some rare case when having a RPG would be useful, doesn't mean the DoD should be sending them to any city that wants one. RPGs are obviously far more dangerous, but the point stands that these things don't need to be in the hands of any town that wants one b/c one of those towns one day in a blue moon will find one helpful, and maybe not even significantly more than other options.

[KeithKSR]

I was expecting something more likely to be driven by Jake and Elwood.

[CitizenBBN]

I was expecting something more likely to be driven by Jake and Elwood.

"It's 1,400 miles to Chicago. We've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're heavily armored."

Not that they will get out of Bozeman with the mpg of those things. lol But if they run into any roadside IEDs on the interstate they're covered. I lost count of how many I saw when I was in Nebraska. Oh wait, that was tumbleweeds.

[bigsky]

you guys are pretty funny.

http://www.military.com/video/combat-vehicles/armored-vehicles/lenco-bearcat-g3-armored-vehicle/2564096450001/

[CitizenBBN]

you guys are pretty funny.

http://www.military.com/video/combat-vehicles/armored-vehicles/lenco-bearcat-g3-armored-vehicle/2564096450001/

Video full of the only reason I can find to have one: assaulting things, specifically bad guys in buildings. So there they are, with AR-15s (or M-4s) all decked out in that stuff Bloomberg wants to ban, in camo gear, aiming through the shielded gun turret at the top.

So how many such assaults have the Bozeman police had to perform in the last year? You guys get a lot of bad guys holed up shooting out the windows like the old Westerns?

Those tactics are designed for military assaults, the goal being to use deadly force to eliminate a threat. I'm not saying it doesn't arise, but it's not the main mission of law enforcement.

I think it says everything that they hid this from you and the city council. Like a child arguing it was OK to sneak out and go to the party, the sneaking out being the operative part of it.

[bigsky]

I liked the penetration and money shot. The thing is unrelenting in its unintentional parody. Yeah the city mgr keeps calling it a "rescue" vehicle and it could happen, but hasn't ever. I think of a rescue vehicle getting someone out of the mountains or out of the river.

I can't be a budget hawk and take this money for a vehicle we won't use. Want to give it to the national guard.

[Doc]

Doc, I think we pretty much agree, but I don't see why even Lexington or Louisville would need one. What event would warrant it?

Riots? We saw in Ferguson how well that works. Unless you have enough gear to really truly repress the population they only inflame the situation, and at that level you need the national guard.

Natural disaster? What does a bulletproof MRAP help with in a flood, even a tornado?

The only one I can kinda see is a standoff situation, where you can assault a building of bad guys shooting at you. first off when's the last time that happened in Lexington? Ideally you negotiate it out, and the vast majority of the time hostages are involved so you don't do frontal assaults.

I'm sure there's some way out event where one could be useful, but it's just too small a number of them to justify having them and all the problems that come with them. I'm sure there is some rare case when having a RPG would be useful, doesn't mean the DoD should be sending them to any city that wants one. RPGs are obviously far more dangerous, but the point stands that these things don't need to be in the hands of any town that wants one b/c one of those towns one day in a blue moon will find one helpful, and maybe not even significantly more than other options.

Zombie apocolypse!

I lived in Louisville when they attempt and succeeded in implementing busing, witnessed the riots associated with that. Likely the closest thing to a need

In most cases its likely to inflame the situation. I guess a terrorist of some type would be the most likely need

[CitizenBBN]

I liked the penetration and money shot. The thing is unrelenting in its unintentional parody. Yeah the city mgr keeps calling it a "rescue" vehicle and it could happen, but hasn't ever. I think of a rescue vehicle getting someone out of the mountains or out of the river.

I can't be a budget hawk and take this money for a vehicle we won't use. Want to give it to the national guard.

Oh yeah. Imo Rescue vehicles have long needed gun ports and armored turrets.

I'm sure you'll do this Jeff but look into the long term maintenance on these things. Mraps are wired for 24 volts, not 12 like every other modern vehicle, which means all custom parts and expertise. Is homeland security going to keep paying the bills and if so isn't that too a problem?

Sent using Forum Runner

[UKHistory]

Grants of this nature really concern me. If you have equipment, you will use it. Nothing about this vehicle or the uniforms in any way say protect and serve but rather search and destroy.

What about spare parts and other maintenance? What about war games? Officers will train with this vehicle. Future training costs,maintenance, storage and basic upkeep will be required.

Typically grants (and I am not an expert with DHS policy) will require reports to be filed, audits conducted, etc. Nothing is totally free.

The fact that this vehicle appears to be free is even worse because communiites that would never budget for this item are more likely to take it because it is free not thinking of the costs I mentioned above until a fiscal year or two down the road.

Unintentional or not the fact that the local law enforcement officials did not follow procedure and get the city council's approval for this vehicle is disconcerting.

Logistically, this is the kind of vehicle to have for the national guard. I see this as far more useful for Customs and border security. Perhaps a vehicle like this protecting the docks and harbors and our nation's ports.

Giving local law enforecement these kinds of toys and dressling like soldiers as opposed to police is asking for trouble.

The far extremes of both liberal and conservative thought meet in the same place: facism.

[UKHistory]

Someone needs to read the fine print of the grant award in terms of audit requirements, fuel costs, maintenance, and future training. It won't be free in a few years.


I liked the penetration and money shot. The thing is unrelenting in its unintentional parody. Yeah the city mgr keeps calling it a "rescue" vehicle and it could happen, but hasn't ever. I think of a rescue vehicle getting someone out of the mountains or out of the river.

I can't be a budget hawk and take this money for a vehicle we won't use. Want to give it to the national guard.