Captian Obvious to the rescue

[CitizenBBN]

Apparently the White House and others are surprised by the simple concept that if you give a bunch of domestic police forces heavy duty military equipment designed for war.... they'll USE IT.

Really? Now they're going to re-examine a policy we here and many in law enforcement saw as a bad direction long ago. LEOs need to be well equipped, but the end goal is still to keep the peace, not win a war. The mentality behind armored assault vehicles being kept by college police leads us down a very wrong, very dark path.

We now see it in Ferguson. It didn't cause the situation of course, but it showed how such tactics and mentality can quickly escalate a situation.

If it gets to the point we need armored vehicles and the like, it's time to call the National Guard anyway. sell all that surplus stuff to any allies who want it, recycle the rest or park them in the desert or something. Don't militarize domestic law enforcement.

[Doc]

I'm one who really could not care less. So some thug who goes around robbing hard working business people gets shot. Would not be an issue were he not black and the office white. Wish the guy who he had just robbed had shot him, then this all would have been avoided except for the outrage over a person protecting his property with the use of force

[KeithKSR]

While the Ferguson stuff has captured headlines there are a lot more kids in Chicago that are killed by their peers, but those problems that are rooted in Johnson's Great Society programs established in the '60's are ignored.

[jazyd]

National guard didn't help stop them last night, and there were just as many white heads stealing the alcohol in that liquor store as blacks last night. probably Mizzou kids stocking up before they head to Columbia.:)

[jazyd]

And just a few miles away the Cardinals are playing a baseball game in front of 45,000 people

[CitizenBBN]

To me it's not about Ferguson per se. I see two interesting things coming from it:

1) How the situation quickly escalated from "serve and protect" to armored vehicles and war zone tactics, the militarization of law enforcement that takes away from doing the fundamental work to keep the peace in the first place, and

2) how quickly the business owners and innocent people in that area were abandoned to defend themselves in order to supposedly diffuse the situation. Basically let the looters and criminals run free, take people's property and perhaps their lives and lives of their loved ones until they just run out of steam.

Who the HELL came up with that plan? Regardless, I can't imagine why people feel a need to be able to provide for their own protection, you know, in a situation of lawlessness the leftists assures simply doesn't happen in this country. Uh, pretty sure it happens a LOT. sometimes in bold ways like Ferguson, pretty much every day in areas like Chicago's south side where people are victimized as a matter of course with the police doing little.

That's not on the police out there busting their butts to serve and protect. Just talked to an officer here (had to deal with a homeless guy at the business). super nice guy, just trying to help, and he's worn out dealing with the BS policies that keep them from doing their job. I am too. He and I and the rank and file LEOs and the pro gun community are on the same side.

it's the pencil pushers and politicians who run these urban police forces and answer to the leftist mayors and councils that are the issue. Get rid of them and the rank and file police would have this stuff cleaned up in short order, and of course they'd support law abiding folks lending a hand by being able to defend themselves as well.

I doubt Lexington ever has this kind of lawlessness, but I'll hang on to my SKS and ammo just in case I need to keep some punk from burning down my home with me and my wife in it, thanks.

[blueboss]

Loot my store, I dare you! Old fashioned Gatling gun ought to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[suncat05]

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the game plan was by the Ferguson Police Department administration AFTER the shooting happened. It looks to me like somebody was asleep at the wheel, but that is just first glance after the fact, and without knowing any of the players involved.
I would also like to know if there has been any outside influence, aside from race baiters Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackson. I have heard reports of the police arresting people in the crowd with California & New York addresses, but I cannot confirm that.
I also fully understand that situations like this can be fast moving and dynamic with their spontaneous beginnings, but there has to be an equally fast moving & dynamic response to any threats to the public and the peace. That is one of the functions of a police entity, to preserve the public peace, above all else. I am not sure that there was a sense of the seriousness of the situation as it escalated to the heights that it did. JMHO, based on what has been reported.

[KeithKSR]

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the game plan was by the Ferguson Police Department administration AFTER the shooting happened. It looks to me like somebody was asleep at the wheel, but that is just first glance after the fact, and without knowing any of the players involved.
I would also like to know if there has been any outside influence, aside from race baiters Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackson. I have heard reports of the police arresting people in the crowd with California & New York addresses, but I cannot confirm that.
I also fully understand that situations like this can be fast moving and dynamic with their spontaneous beginnings, but there has to be an equally fast moving & dynamic response to any threats to the public and the peace. That is one of the functions of a police entity, to preserve the public peace, above all else. I am not sure that there was a sense of the seriousness of the situation as it escalated to the heights that it did. JMHO, based on what has been reported.

Of the 120+ people arrested night before last four were from Ferguson.

[UKHistory]

While the killing of an unarmed citizen (criminal or not; agressor or not there needs to be some type of investigation and an analysis to determine what happened and what could have kept this from ending so badly and if the officer should be charged) the larger issue to me is the militarization of law enforcement.

That is scary. No one really said anything but I was kind of alarmed to see police in Boston roaming the city looking for the bombers looking more like soldiers than police.

To me the Ferguson situation brings whites and blacks together in surprising ways but with common objectives. Whatever our initial thought of the decased Michael Brown or the officer, Americans of all races want law enforecement to protect the ciitizens and not act like goose stepping facists.

From the armor to the uniforms to the mentality it is scary to see how the police initially reacted and how they deployed equipment that is designed for search and destroy and not serve and protect.

[suncat05]

We don't have anything like that out here where I'm located. And honestly, we don't need it. We do carry AR-15's, but everybody around here has a rifle or handgun of some sort in their vehicles & homes. That's what I consider to be normal for this area and environment.
And I agree, I really don't see a good, logical reason for most law enforcement agencies to have an MRAP or an APC. You need something like that then it's time to activate the state National Guard and let them deal with the situation at hand.

[UKHistory]

An AR-15 is an appropriate weapon for law enforcement. I don't want law enforecement to be at a disadvantage against criminals. The lives of police are no less precious to me than any US citizen.

Throwing these big toys at towns without the need is a recipe for disaster. It is a waste of money. Better to fit police cars with bullet proof glass or stronger plating than to send in tanks.




We don't have anything like that out here where I'm located. And honestly, we don't need it. We do carry AR-15's, but everybody around here has a rifle or handgun of some sort in their vehicles & homes. That's what I consider to be normal for this area and environment.
And I agree, I really don't see a good, logical reason for most law enforcement agencies to have an MRAP or an APC. You need something like that then it's time to activate the state National Guard and let them deal with the situation at hand.

[CitizenBBN]

We don't have anything like that out here where I'm located. And honestly, we don't need it. We do carry AR-15's, but everybody around here has a rifle or handgun of some sort in their vehicles & homes. That's what I consider to be normal for this area and environment.
And I agree, I really don't see a good, logical reason for most law enforcement agencies to have an MRAP or an APC. You need something like that then it's time to activate the state National Guard and let them deal with the situation at hand.

Like History said, LEOs need AR-15s. They need cars that are as bulletproof as possible for the vehicle in question.

It's when we move up to MRAPs and full auto M-16s that we've changed from the mentality of serve and protect to siege and engagement. As you said, if we get to that level it's time to call in the national guard.

It's even more obviously a problem when it isn't just a larger urban police force getting a MRAP, but campus police like at OSU. The students burn some couches after a big win, do they roll in the heavy armor? What's the psychology of guys in full body armor and shields, being delivered in an APC with gun ports and a top hatch with a firing shield? Are they seeing these as kids they are supposed to PROTECT from each other and themselves or an ENEMY to be defeated? how can they not slip to that view?

I don't blame the line guys either, it's the higher ups who are having a penis contest and want that heavy armor. Maintenance on it alone pulls away resources from better things even if they get it for free. MRAPs are wired on a whole different voltage than conventional vehicles (24 v 12), require special maintenance and parts. Will they keep paying the bills and not get an itch to use it once in a while?

Police should be as well armed for their job as they can be. It's just that their job isn't to engage in military maneuvers with combat grade equipment. I don't even see why SWAT needs full auto M-16s or M4s. They should be engaged in pretty precision firing when shooting, not the spray and pray of "kill anyone over there" of combat.

At the least give the MRAPs to the National Guards. Then they're available but it's a much bigger deal to deploy them.

[KeithKSR]

True story. My daughter and her then new husband (who the entire family hates and expects him to be an abuser) split for a short time about a week in to their marriage. The slime ball call the KSP and tells them we are holding her hostage. Come to the house, peak in the windows, including our master bath window where they were caught red handed by my oldest daughter and son-in-law. They told my daughter they were ready to ram the front door and go in. My older daughter told them if they really wanted to find her sister all the had to do was go back down the road, take the drive on the right and talk to her, since he younger sister was visiting her cousin.

Ready to break in to my home without probable cause, without a warrant, and apparently lacking any common sense.

By the way, I personally know people deputy sheriffs, local city officers, former city officers, etc. They are good guys. The snot nose kids coming out of a the KSP academy all think they are above the law and think the are omnipotent. That is a recipe that will get them killed in an area where guns likely outnumber people.

[CitizenBBN]

Article on Fox reminding people that us Libertarians have been calling attention to this issue for some time, and been dismissed by the liberals who you think would be the first ones to agree on an issue of civil liberties.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/08/20/libertarians-police-and-ferguson-fury/

But i find that many on both the right and left aren't so much interested in stopping the state from telling us what to do and insuring our civil liberties so much as they are interested in using the state to insure the liberties they like and suppressing those they don't.

In the end the danger is power itself, not just who wields it. The whole goal is to not let it concentrate, pit it against itself in every way possible, and thus negate it. So few seem to get that these days.

[dan_bgblue]

POTUS wants investigation of programs allowing transfer of military equipment to local police forces (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/23/obama-orders-review-federal-programs-that-allow-local-police-to-get-military/)

Has he been living under a rock for the last 6 years?

[CitizenBBN]

Has he been living under a rock for the last 6 years?

Must be Bush's fault. A mere six years isn't nearly enough time to figure out what your administration is doing with billions of dollars and billions of tons of heavy military equipment.

Maybe he'll blame Ike, that's when the modern military industrial complex really began to take form.

[suncat05]

POTUS wants investigation of programs allowing transfer of military equipment to local police forces (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/23/obama-orders-review-federal-programs-that-allow-local-police-to-get-military/)

Has he been living under a rock for the last 6 years?

If I'm not mistaken, I do believe that this was done with his highness' blessing not too recently..........

[CitizenBBN]

If I'm not mistaken, I do believe that this was done with his highness' blessing not too recently..........

right you are. Obama has been a big proponent of numerous policies and enforcement efforts that are directly militarizing the police.

Here's a nice summary from Huffington Post, lest anyone think I'm citing a conservative source with bias. HuffPo is liberal. Go back to 2013, before the political wind started blowing the other way this past week, and see what he was doing:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/10/obama-police-militarization_n_3566478.html

Obama's DOJ with Holder has supported the asset forfeiture programs that fund some of this move, grants that have created these roving "inter-jurisdictional" militarized units, and of course it's his DoD that set a record for transfers to domestic law enforcement in 2011.

He's directly behind it, but he's so disengaged from anything his administration is doing he can deny knowing anything about anything.

It's funny, I thought he'd be extremely pro-active about his socialist agenda. Turns out he's extremely put off when everyone doesn't agree with him, to the extent that he just disengages and goes off to the gold course or Martha's Vineyard to contemplate his utopian world.

He just can't take the heat of the political kitchen. Nor can he make decisions, like this militarization. He's supposed to be this big "liberal". Well liberals are big on civil rights. What Obama is is a socialist, and they are big on government and government control. Thus we see not a curtailment of such programs but their expansion.

This despite his campaign rhetoric about the drug war and how questionable it has been in many ways. Rather than curtail it the number of federal drug "raids" and grants for such raids by non-feds, Obama and Holder have only expanded them. Socialists are actually bigger on "law and order" than conservatives, liberals are not.

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, not that the media will call him on it. Dredge up old quotes with him endorsing these transfers and even lauding them, or quotes from Holder or his Sec of Defense. Oh no.

The media are disillusioned with their Dear Leader, but they won't turn on him just yet. They should, he's abandoned them and their agenda.

[blueboss]

True story. My daughter and her then new husband (who the entire family hates and expects him to be an abuser) split for a short time about a week in to their marriage. The slime ball call the KSP and tells them we are holding her hostage. Come to the house, peak in the windows, including our master bath window where they were caught red handed by my oldest daughter and son-in-law. They told my daughter they were ready to ram the front door and go in. My older daughter told them if they really wanted to find her sister all the had to do was go back down the road, take the drive on the right and talk to her, since he younger sister was visiting her cousin.

Ready to break in to my home without probable cause, without a warrant, and apparently lacking any common sense.

By the way, I personally know people deputy sheriffs, local city officers, former city officers, etc. They are good guys. The snot nose kids coming out of a the KSP academy all think they are above the law and think the are omnipotent. That is a recipe that will get them killed in an area where guns likely outnumber people.


Does the slime ball like to hunt? Bird season opens next Monday.... Always a lot of lead in the air



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dan_bgblue]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/19/politics/coburn-bill-police-militarization/index.html?hpt=hp_bn3

[Darrell KSR]

True story. My daughter and her then new husband (who the entire family hates and expects him to be an abuser) split for a short time about a week in to their marriage. The slime ball call the KSP and tells them we are holding her hostage. Come to the house, peak in the windows, including our master bath window where they were caught red handed by my oldest daughter and son-in-law. They told my daughter they were ready to ram the front door and go in. My older daughter told them if they really wanted to find her sister all the had to do was go back down the road, take the drive on the right and talk to her, since he younger sister was visiting her cousin.

Ready to break in to my home without probable cause, without a warrant, and apparently lacking any common sense.

By the way, I personally know people deputy sheriffs, local city officers, former city officers, etc. They are good guys. The snot nose kids coming out of a the KSP academy all think they are above the law and think the are omnipotent. That is a recipe that will get them killed in an area where guns likely outnumber people.

Wow. That's scary.

[CitizenBBN]

That is a recipe that will get them killed in an area where guns likely outnumber people.

Happened in Georgia iirc. Busted in a guy's place at 3am, based on a "tip" he had pot or some such. No knock on the door, just busted it down and came in. Guy wakes up in a stupor, sees a guy coming down the hall, has no idea it's a cop, shoots him. There were no drugs btw.

I'ts horrible someone was killed, but I can see doing the same thing as that guy. you're half asleep, you know a loud noise woke you up but no idea what it was, here comes this guy towards your bedroom in the dark with you and your wife in bed. You would never in a billion years think "maybe it's the cops coming to look for drugs" b/c you don't have any drugs.

[KeithKSR]

Happened in Georgia iirc. Busted in a guy's place at 3am, based on a "tip" he had pot or some such. No knock on the door, just busted it down and came in. Guy wakes up in a stupor, sees a guy coming down the hall, has no idea it's a cop, shoots him. There were no drugs btw.

I'ts horrible someone was killed, but I can see doing the same thing as that guy. you're half asleep, you know a loud noise woke you up but no idea what it was, here comes this guy towards your bedroom in the dark with you and your wife in bed. You would never in a billion years think "maybe it's the cops coming to look for drugs" b/c you don't have any drugs.

The police showed poor judgement in entering the home in the middle of the night. A warrant could more easily been served in the daytime hours. Gotta question the validity of a lot of warrants being issued when reports are rampant of issuance of warrants that are "mistakes".

[suncat05]

Warrant service in the middle of the night has been standard operational procedure for eons. Why? Because along about 2AM-5AM the bad guys are shutting down business, laying down in bed and going to sleep. It's the most optimal time to catch them off guard. And that has been proven over and over again, it's just a fact of criminal life.
And normal people, who work and have real jobs not related to criminal activity are almost always in bed in deep sleep between the hours of 2AM-5AM.

[CitizenBBN]

Warrant service in the middle of the night has been standard operational procedure for eons. Why? Because along about 2AM-5AM the bad guys are shutting down business, laying down in bed and going to sleep. It's the most optimal time to catch them off guard. And that has been proven over and over again, it's just a fact of criminal life.
And normal people, who work and have real jobs not related to criminal activity are almost always in bed in deep sleep between the hours of 2AM-5AM.

I don't have a problem with going after the bad guys at 2am, but when a warrant is issued on a tip and you bring in that kind of procedure for a report of something like pot, that is just an unnecessary risk for everyone. It was an awfully flimsy basis to use those procedures. If it was a crack house the cops have been watching or a known criminal I get it, but it seems these days it's being applied to the kinds of situations that used to be handled with a knock at the door and a conversation.

[CitizenBBN]

Just to add, ran out of time before, that I'm good with using strong tactics when warranted, but that line seems to be moving more and more to include stuff that 20 years ago wasn't a SWAT type operation.

As you know far better than I, law enforcement begins with connection to community and the support of the community. The problem with militarization is that it removes that connection between LEOs and the law abiding citizens into a more "us and them" view. It undermines the fabric that lets LEOS do their job effectively.

It's not all on that. the war on drugs have greatly strained every aspect of law enforcement, just as Prohibition did. We even see the similarities in "militarization" between the two lost causes. These days it's armored vehicles and M16s, in prohibition we saw expansion of armed federal agents. Now we see guys not even taken to trial b/c the jails are full as are the courts, and exactly the same thing happened in Prohibition. Plea bargains were rare prior to prohibition, it became common because of the huge workload created by arresting people for drinking booze.

So a lot of it is the very nature of the laws we're trying to enforce, specifically laws about consumption in a country with huge amounts of freedom that makes enforcement impossible. If they weren't raiding this guy for pot, or anyone else, then we could apply resources to the dangerous criminals, robbers, rapists, etc., do more investigation, and then when we kick in the door we know we've got the right man and that he's done something that warrants kicking it in.

That's not on LEOs. They're on the front lines trying to enforce the laws they're assigned. Some are bad apples, some are kids who want to play with toys, same as any profession, but most are just trying to do a good job and help people. Just like Prohibition, the laws themselves are the fundamental reason for the split, as the police and politicians become corrupted (there's a long standing adage "cops have the best drugs) and the laws make huge numbers of Americans "criminals" for things other than property and violent crimes.

[dan_bgblue]

Somehow I am missing the the overwhelming need for a coroner to have a government issued rifle, handgun, and humvee.

Linkage (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/10/06/military-surplus-program-gives-weapons-to-coroner-and-livestock-theft/?intcmp=obnetwork)

[CitizenBBN]

Wish they'd open up this treasure trove to FFLs. That was a 1911 on his hip, just let us have the semi-auto stuff guys.

I'd want a Humvee if I were a coroner, and a rifle. They may be zombies just faking.

[dan_bgblue]

Yeah the text even said it is a Colt. mmmmmmm, drooollllll