All hell breaking loose

[KeithKSR]

A Malaysian airliner was shot down over the Ukraine, may have been the Russians or a Ukraine rebel group. In the Middle East Israel is ramping up an offensive by air, sea and land on Hamas.

[CitizenBBN]

This is what happens when the US is perceived as weak and unlikely to respond to aggression and when we open the door to terrorist groups like Hamas and by legitimizing them offer them political protection and status.

You simply do not deal with groups whose mission statement includes genocide or elimination of a sovereign UN recognized nation. The US continuing to support and aid the Palestinian government when Hamas joined was what has sparked this current situation.

In the Ukraine it was the US being unwilling to either drag NATO into an agreement or to forge one with the Ukraine on its own that led to the current aggression. We needed to sew up those nations as US allies within our umbrella of protection when Russia was in no position to do anything about it.

These things flare up sometimes no matter what we do, but we don't have to so actively encourage them, which is why we have so many now.

[jazyd]

Its what happens when you have a president that is more interested in fund raising and vacations and has no backbone and lacks balls. Or as citizen said, is perceived as being weak, I prefer to say it like it is. Obama has done more damage in 6 years than the previous 50 combined

[KeithKSR]

Its what happens when you have a president that is more interested in fund raising and vacations and has no backbone and lacks balls. Or as citizen said, is perceived as being weak, I prefer to say it like it is. Obama has done more damage in 6 years than the previous 50 combined

I agree, we don't need a fundraiser in chief, we need a Commander in Chief.

[Catonahottinroof]

I'm not sure the Russians did this. There is no gain for them militarily or politically. Only blame which doesn't help their cause here.

[CitizenBBN]

I'm not sure the Russians did this. There is no gain for them militarily or politically. Only blame which doesn't help their cause here.

They wouldn't have done it intentionally. But they have been shooting down Ukrainian planes and they just mistook this one for one of theirs. By most accounts their lower ranks aren't terribly well trained or disciplined, and likely it just showed up on radar and they shot at it without checking higher up.

It would have been a mistake, but one based in their illegal activities that have already shot down a couple of Ukrainian planes.

[suncat05]

They wouldn't have done it intentionally. But they have been shooting down Ukrainian planes and they just mistook this one for one of theirs. By most accounts their lower ranks aren't terribly well trained or disciplined, and likely it just showed up on radar and they shot at it without checking higher up.

It would have been a mistake, but one based in their illegal activities that have already shot down a couple of Ukrainian planes.

I agree, they most likely would not have done it intentionally. However, they are still responsible for this action, but I have serious doubts as to whether the offending parties will ever have to pay for the deaths of these innocent people. They murdered innocent people. Period. End of story.
Up to this point, I have not heard any 100% positive confirmation that American citizens were among those murdered. That said, I have zero confidence that this POTUS or his administration will take any meaningful action against the offending parties. Oh sure, they'll issue some meaningless and worthless sanctions against somebody like the Russian agriculture minister, and that will be the end of that.

On to the next crisis!

[Catonahottinroof]

I agree a lawless underling may have done this, but which government is in turmoil and which is not?
I don't doubt they could have done. But the Ruskies usually have a payoff that exceeds the bad will or PR that follows an incident such as this one. It doesn't exist here.

[KeithKSR]

Putin trying to dial back the heat by calling for a cease fire in Ukraine.

[KeithKSR]

I agree a lawless underling may have done this, but which government is in turmoil and which is not?
I don't doubt they could have done. But the Ruskies usually have a payoff that exceeds the bad will or PR that follows an incident such as this one. It doesn't exist here.

It is obvious it was thought to be a Ukraine transport plane, but it was discovered after viewing the wreckage that it was a civilian airliner. Fox had audio of two people conversing that were involved in shooting the airliner down, it is unknown who they were.

[jazyd]

Russian, there is also a tweet saying they shot down another Ukraine plane thinking it was a transport and then taken down quickly when they realized they screwed up. Putin playing Ukraine,what an ass. and he is daring Obama to do something.


It is obvious it was thought to be a Ukraine transport plane, but it was discovered after viewing the wreckage that it was a civilian airliner. Fox had audio of two people conversing that were involved in shooting the airliner down, it is unknown who they were.

[suncat05]

He won't do anything jazy, except play another round of golf and go to the next Democrat fundraiser. Oh yeah, and start his vacation.

[jazyd]

i think you have him figured out. LOL



He won't do anything jazy, except play another round of golf and go to the next Democrat fundraiser. Oh yeah, and start his vacation.

[KeithKSR]

i think you have him figured out. LOL

That is about all he does.

[CitizenBBN]

I agree a lawless underling may have done this, but which government is in turmoil and which is not?
I don't doubt they could have done. But the Ruskies usually have a payoff that exceeds the bad will or PR that follows an incident such as this one. It doesn't exist here.

The Ukrainians are unlikely to shoot down planes since the rebels aren't flying planes and the Russians as far as we know haven't either. The only side shooting down planes is the pro-Russian groups and the Russians themselves. That narrows down our list of possible guilty parties unless the Ukrainians did it purposely to blame on them, which seems pretty unlikely to me.

it was a mistake, not a planned shooting down of a commercial flight. This didn't come from their generals, but was done by some lower level commander either Russian or pro-Russian with captured equipment. The Russians have already shot down a Ukrainian transport plane and at least one jet fighter. One rebel leader tweeted after the shoot down claiming credit and saying no Ukrainian planes would fly in their airspace. This only follows a weeks long pattern of shooting down aircraft, all of which has been done by those forces.

Someone in command of one of those anti-aircraft batteries, either Russian or a pro-Russian group, saw a plane coming into that disputed air space, didn't occur to them it may not be Ukrainian, and fired without checking above him.

All the reports coming out from the international groups trying to get to the wreckage are reporting that there is no real command heirarchy among the rebels, that no one seems to be in total command. These are largely just bands of people more akin to well armed gangs than a military unit, and I'm not sure some of the Russian troops are all that much more disciplined or controlled.

The fog of war in these situations is incredibly high. The Russians are clearly supporting these para-military groups with aid and weapons and probably anti-aircraft support based on recent events, yet are claiming they are doing nothing. This is all being done with a wink and a nod, giving the local commanders on the ground wide latitude b/c they don't even want intel and actions being reported back through formal channels.

It's possible Ukraine is playing some huge Machiavellian game but it's more likely this was seen as another Ukrainian transport to shoot down by either Russian or pro-Russian forces, it came across their radar and they fired without getting higher approval. In the case of the pro-Russian rebels there really isn't a higher approval, and it's totally believable they'd just fire and not think twice. The only question is if they are in control of any of the weapons necessary to hit a plane at this height. if not then look to the Russians.

[CitizenBBN]

FWIW US intel sources are reporting that this was a Russian weapon they brought into the Ukraine for use by pro-Russian rebels and that the very launcher used in the downing is probably back in Russia now, with the Russians realizing just how dumb it is to give such weapons to amateur fanatics.

That to me has been the likely scenario, 80-90% probability to pick a number. Russia either directly or indirectly providing air defense to the rebels, who then use it without a chain of command to verify a target that comes up on radar.

I will say I'm a bit surprised the Russians would be dumb enough to give such weapons to these groups, which is why I figured it was a mistake by a Russian unit. But if they have given these things to the rebels then it's really easy to see how one of them,with no real chain of command, would just pull the trigger without much thought that it may not be a military target. That happens all the time in these war situations with such groups.

that lines up perfectly with the now deleted tweet from one of the local commanders there as well. They were taking credit for it before they found out it was a civilian non-Ukrainian target.

[CitizenBBN]

I meant to also add that the real clinching evidence is that the rebels are carting off evidence from the site, no doubt the black boxes which are reportedly on their way to Moscow and I'm sure every piece of missile debris they can find. If the Ukrainians did it they'd want the investigators there, but they are controlling their coverage so they can cleanse the area and then let them into it a piece at a time.

At this point we seem to even know the commander who ordered it, and there are pics of the actual launcher used. This was the Russians giving powerful weapons to loose cannons ending in tragedy.

Not that any flight should have been near that airspace, but afaik no one had warned that civilian craft would be fired upon.

[blueboss]

Obama stated his news conference response to the shoot down he also touched on the Gaza situation he said he did not blame Israel for retaliating against missile strikes and (here's the good part) to close the tunnels that are allowing terrorists to move freely back and forth....does that mean we'll be attacking Mexico.

[CitizenBBN]

Obama stated his news conference response to the shoot down he also touched on the Gaza situation he said he did not blame Israel for retaliating against missile strikes and (here's the good part) to close the tunnels that are allowing terrorists to move freely back and forth....does that mean we'll be attacking Mexico.

They wont' let one troubled young Marine go, let's see what they do with a couple of divisions of them with tanks and air support. :)

[jazyd]

Why not call all our allies in Europe and tell them we have all the natural gas they want at 10% less for one year than what they paid Russia. Then call Putin and explain what we just did
Also have gunships and birds bring Marines in unannounced at the crash site and secure it,.
Give Ukraine all the unneeded equipment from Afghanistan that we were going to leave and let their army have fun.
Put a Carrier group in the Med.
Tell Putin we will take out any nuclear bombs in Iran
Tell Iran we will build Nuclear plants for energy and run it for them, watch them backpedal :)
Show some backbone

[blueboss]

Why not call all our allies in Europe and tell them we have all the natural gas they want at 10% less for one year than what they paid Russia. Then call Putin and explain what we just did
Also have gunships and birds bring Marines in unannounced at the crash site and secure it,.
Give Ukraine all the unneeded equipment from Afghanistan that we were going to leave and let their army have fun.
Put a Carrier group in the Med.
Tell Putin we will take out any nuclear bombs in Iran
Tell Iran we will build Nuclear plants for energy and run it for them, watch them backpedal :)
Show some backbone

http://www.libertynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/obama-laugh.jpg

[UKStucat]

I am almost positive that the Russian rebels in Ukraine shot down the Malaysian airliner. I don't think they knew it was Malaysian when they shot it down but the result is the same. Russia enabled the Russian rebels in Ukraine to shoot down the plane by supplying them with surface to air missiles.