Can kids add today?

[jazyd]

We have 3 teens that work for us plus one 'girl' who is 25 and I swear they cannot add at all. Each night they have to count the cash in the drawer, put it down by bill or coin, add it up and then subtract $250 from the total and that is how much cash we should have taken in each day. They came up $22 over today, so I went back and started counting each different bill until I got to the ones, and looked at the total and they wrote down $71, it was $46. I asked them how in the world they got $71 and they both just looked at me.
I watched one, a junior to be, count nickels and she lined them up next to each other,
nickle-nickle
nickle-nickle
and so forth until she got to a dollar and then put the next 4 in the same manner, I asked her how many nickles were in a dollar and she had no idea. I had to tell her 20 and suggested she count to 20, put down and dollar and then count the next bunch. Totally foreign to her. And she isn't alone.

I am totally amazed at how little teens know today about simple little things.

[UKHistory]

I think computers make us less informed daily. The more that machines do, the more mindless we become. And counting money is not any of the big standardized tests (at least I don't believe so) so that practical way of counting is foreign.

There are very many practical life skills that are not taught in school or at home.

[jazyd]

History, you are so correct and you should know. I was telling my sunday school teacher the other night this story and he laughed and said none of the kids he hires out of school can use a tape or ruler. He is a builder and they don't know what those 'little lines' mean on a tape.


I think computers make us less informed daily. The more that machines do, the more mindless we become. And counting money is not any of the big standardized tests (at least I don't believe so) so that practical way of counting is foreign.

There are very many practical life skills that are not taught in school or at home.

[KeithKSR]

History, you are so correct and you should know. I was telling my sunday school teacher the other night this story and he laughed and said none of the kids he hires out of school can use a tape or ruler. He is a builder and they don't know what those 'little lines' mean on a tape.

Kentucky's curriculum addressed some of the issues in math, like reading rulers, but then Common Core was adopted and wiped out the gains. I have always advocated a tunnel vision focus on reading and math through second grade, and then expanding the curriculum to other subjects beginning in third grade. Establish the solid foundation, then build from that point.

[jazyd]

keith I agree, w/o a solid foundation of understanding the basics, one is really lost.



Kentucky's curriculum addressed some of the issues in math, like reading rulers, but then Common Core was adopted and wiped out the gains. I have always advocated a tunnel vision focus on reading and math through second grade, and then expanding the curriculum to other subjects beginning in third grade. Establish the solid foundation, then build from that point.

[PedroDaGr8]

While it's very true that some stuff has been lost. There is also a lot gained. Much as most of us don't know how to drive a horse and buggy, many kids today are losing skills that are no longer as relevant for their generation. By the time kids reach high school, most are familiar with topics in science that were graduate level discussions forty years ago. The fact of the matter is, the amount of knowledge to be learned has grown exponentially. At one point in time, the entire knowledge of all science could be contained within a few books. At this point, you would need a few thousand books at minimum. The sheer breadth of knowledge most kids have now is truly mind numbing. Unfortunately, it has come at the cost of some basic abilities.

[suncat05]

In a word........NO! Some cannot read, many cannot comprehend what they're reading, many cannot spell correctly and don't even know how to look a word up to learn how to correclty spell it, many cannot write in legible cursive, some cannot add/subtract/multiply/divide without using some kind of calculator(although I sure do wish we would have had those when I was in school!), and most kids' primary means of communicating is through TEXTING. When you ask them a question in intelligent American English they get this "deer in the headlights" look that aggravates the snot out of me.......I guess if I TEXTED them the damn question they'd know how to answer, that is, IF they know the answer.
I used to respect teachers. I have little respect for them now, as it is quite apparent to me that our teachers(and their damn socialist/communist union masters!)are ruining our childrens chances at competing in the so-called "global marketplace" of the future. Parents are not parenting, teachers are not teaching, and both expect to find their answers from the leviathan called the 'federal government', when in fact, they'd be so much better off with LESS federal government involvement in their lives. But then, that would require some work, and effort, which few of our teachers today seem willing to expend to better educate our youth and make them competitors in the global market.
But hey, what do I know? Maybe one of these bright liberal socialist/communist educated schoolteachers could tell me how wrong I am?

Save your liberal/socialist/communist instructions for someone who's stupid enough to believe you!

[CitizenBBN]

While it's very true that some stuff has been lost. There is also a lot gained. Much as most of us don't know how to drive a horse and buggy, many kids today are losing skills that are no longer as relevant for their generation. By the time kids reach high school, most are familiar with topics in science that were graduate level discussions forty years ago. The fact of the matter is, the amount of knowledge to be learned has grown exponentially. At one point in time, the entire knowledge of all science could be contained within a few books. At this point, you would need a few thousand books at minimum. The sheer breadth of knowledge most kids have now is truly mind numbing. Unfortunately, it has come at the cost of some basic abilities.

i'd like to accept that, but I'm not sure I can.

At the end of the day only a fraction of kids will go into the sciences or even high academic pursuits, and even if they have to sit through the classes with the more advanced topics few care about them and just as few will ever find it useful in their daily lives.

What they would find useful is basic math, basic reading comprehension and critical thinking skills, and I have yet to see that taught very well in my lifetime or now.

When I was young I argued for being able to use calculators in my classes so I get the reasoning, but that view isn't completely valid b/c knowing how numbers flow and work is fundamental to the rest of higher math. The trick is to balance it, and it isn't. We couldn't use calculators most of the time but we did a segment on log tables. Really?

Ideally we'd teach math like my grandmother learned it, which was to teach all the shortcuts and such that let her do fractions and basic math faster than anything I can do, despite being taught in a one room schoolhouse on a hillside. Then we could add in calculators and computers, drop the log tables, and have kids who can both understand and do math and have the foundation to then use computers correctly.

I'm as tech as one can get (almost) but I see a real lack of fundamental understanding in education. I see people who treat it all as black boxes, from calculators for math to reading and everything else. that's not really educating people IMO even if it is done on a computer.

A good example of reading is how I see people on the net all the time say you can't "read sarcasm". That would be news to Oscar Wilde and about a million other writers in our history. Of course you can freakin' read sarcasm, you just have to have good reading comp skills. No you will miss it once in a while here and there, sometimes you have to read a line from Joyce or Shakespeare a few times to get it, but overall you will be able to follow the point even if it is sarcastic if you can just fundamentally read.

Instead of teaching that skill we just add emoticons and such to what we now write b/c catching the subtleties of the written language is too hard and missed by too many. Not sure that's an advancement.

I get your point and I agree with it to a point, but I do think we're leapfrogging the basics of reading, writing and arithmetic and that's leaving kids without the right foundation to then take advantage of more advanced concepts and technology.

The geeks of the world will be fine, they pursue knowledge and learning on their own, but way too many people outside that group have almost no connection to literature or higher thought and lack the math and language skills to be able to rise above their current socio-economic level.

Of course they also lack the sense of responsibility, pride in their work and ambition to improve through their own effort (and not just have it handed to them), so it's a much broader issue than just being able to add. In Hitchhiker's we have 1/3rd of society useless, I think we're getting up around 50%. lol

[blueboss]

Yesterday I was in a hurry and stopped in a convenience store (mistake), the guy in front of me who I would have guessed to be in his late twenties asked for $6 on pump three. For the next 10 minutes he counted out $4 in change and laid two singles on the counter, it took another 10 minutes for the cashier to verify it and separate the coins


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jazyd]

[must have been my employees parent :)


QUOTE=blueboss;199703]Yesterday I was in a hurry and stopped in a convenience store (mistake), the guy in front of me who I would have guessed to be in his late twenties asked for $6 on pump three. For the next 10 minutes he counted out $4 in change and laid two singles on the counter, it took another 10 minutes for the cashier to verify it and separate the coins


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

[jazyd]

Citizen and sun have hit the nail. Yes kids are smart today, have studied things in ways I never did but only because of computers. They can't add, subtract or multiply in their heads . They don't know multiplication tables. We had two very good students that were seniors, our computer went down so they had to figure sales tax on their own. My wife told them to multiply by .07 and that to original amount for the total. I told them to multiply by 1.07, and the difference was the sales tax. They could not understand it was the same, plus what was baffling was we had to explain how to figure sales tax.

Another employee with a 31 on her ACT told me she couldn't sign a customers name on a charge slip on a phone order, she can't write in cursive, nor can she read my writing.

They can't get names right on the phone. Because they never talk, just text so they have not learned to listen. I have asked them repeatedly to repeat the name back to the customer t they don't.

I have also learned that high school students are shown movies often, when teachers don't want to teach. When I was told by a señor that she watched finding Elmo at least 30 times in HS I didn't believe her but was told by other students it was the truth.

My daughter teaches 5th grade and is a good teacher because she teaches, she doesn't just use an outline supplied by the district. She specializes in reading and has made reading enjoyable for her students.

I know we have teachers here and are probably good but many are not and I spend lots of time with them. You won't believe how often I am asked about sales tax and I tell them 7% and they can't figure it.

When they don't know what the 'little lines' on a ruler are, can't figure sales tax, watch Finding Elmo as seniors, can't write or read cursive then they truly aren't smart. They are just adept at using a phone

[CitizenBBN]

jazy what I encounter is younger folk who, b/c it hasn't been demanded of them due to circumstance or parents or the education system, simply are not good at learning. They have a mindset that anything they don't know they have to be taught by someone, that they cannot figure it out or challenge themselves.

That's always been true for a lot of people, but it seems to be getting worse as kids face fewer challenges and more and more laziness and self indulgence is tolerated. It's always been among us, but I think the ratio is only getting worse.

[jazyd]

Very true.


jazy what I encounter is younger folk who, b/c it hasn't been demanded of them due to circumstance or parents or the education system, simply are not good at learning. They have a mindset that anything they don't know they have to be taught by someone, that they cannot figure it out or challenge themselves.

That's always been true for a lot of people, but it seems to be getting worse as kids face fewer challenges and more and more laziness and self indulgence is tolerated. It's always been among us, but I think the ratio is only getting worse.

[KeithKSR]

While it's very true that some stuff has been lost. There is also a lot gained. Much as most of us don't know how to drive a horse and buggy, many kids today are losing skills that are no longer as relevant for their generation. By the time kids reach high school, most are familiar with topics in science that were graduate level discussions forty years ago. The fact of the matter is, the amount of knowledge to be learned has grown exponentially. At one point in time, the entire knowledge of all science could be contained within a few books. At this point, you would need a few thousand books at minimum. The sheer breadth of knowledge most kids have now is truly mind numbing. Unfortunately, it has come at the cost of some basic abilities.

Reading isn't one of the basic skills that should be sacrificed, nor should basic math skills.

[suncat05]

Reading isn't one of the basic skills that should be sacrificed, nor should basic math skills.

Nor the ability to legibly write in cursive handwriting. Or to even be able to hand print on paper. Or whatever material is available. Most of these kids cannot even do that.
What happens if the power grid(s) go down, and there is no ability to use a computer? What if(God forbid that it actually happen!) there is an EMP due to a nuclear detenation over our country? Then what? Anything with an electronic chip in it will be fried. And I realize that at that point we will have far larger obstacles to overcome than handwritten communication, but at some point the ability to communicate in that manner will become necessary, and important again. How will they teach their kids if they don't know how? At that point the reliance on electronic devices is out the window, and we will truly have massive numbers of illiterate kids, most very young, who will not be able to effectively write an intelligent phrase, much less a complete sentence or a whole paragraph in cursive.
Whoever thought this idea up is either very shortsighted or, smart enough to know that if you "dumb down" the ability of the major segment of the population to be able to communicate in handwritten form, then those that can write will be in control of those who can't at some point.
Think about it. Could all of these things come to pass and actually happen? Not saying it will happen, but if it did then where does that put most people about the ages of 30 & under?

[KeithKSR]

Nor the ability to legibly write in cursive handwriting. Or to even be able to hand print on paper. Or whatever material is available. Most of these kids cannot even do that.
What happens if the power grid(s) go down, and there is no ability to use a computer? What if(God forbid that it actually happen!) there is an EMP due to a nuclear detenation over our country? Then what? Anything with an electronic chip in it will be fried. And I realize that at that point we will have far larger obstacles to overcome than handwritten communication, but at some point the ability to communicate in that manner will become necessary, and important again. How will they teach their kids if they don't know how? At that point the reliance on electronic devices is out the window, and we will truly have massive numbers of illiterate kids, most very young, who will not be able to effectively write an intelligent phrase, much less a complete sentence or a whole paragraph in cursive.
Whoever thought this idea up is either very shortsighted or, smart enough to know that if you "dumb down" the ability of the major segment of the population to be able to communicate in handwritten form, then those that can write will be in control of those who can't at some point.
Think about it. Could all of these things come to pass and actually happen? Not saying it will happen, but if it did then where does that put most people about the ages of 30 & under?

My two youngest taught themselves cursive writing, they no longer taught it in school. They are now 21 and 16. I get 7th graders every year who cannot sign their name, they print it. They cannot read cursive writing.

[suncat05]

My two youngest taught themselves cursive writing, they no longer taught it in school. They are now 21 and 16. I get 7th graders every year who cannot sign their name, they print it. They cannot read cursive writing.

And THAT is the "smoking gun" that proves that the teachers unions, the administrators, and the entire public school system in our country is failing our kids miserably. What they do, and in some places want to do is teach our kids this "Common Core" nonsense so that in the end, all they'll be good for is being the little Communists/socialists that the federal government/education system wants them to be.
The federal government has no business being involved in public education. Public education & public schools are a state & local issue. Each individual state should see to the educational needs of its citizens children.
But then, we have an ever growing federal monstrosity that has taken on a life of its own, contrary to the Constitution and the intent of our Founding Fathers. We have federal agencies that we don't need. Let's start with the biggest federal offender, the IRS. We don't need Homeland Security. We don't need the EPA in its current size or form. We don't need the federal Dept. of Education. Again, public education is each individual state's responsibility. We don't need the Dept. of the Interior in its current size or form. I could go on and on. Bottom line is, we don't need probably half of what we have now in regards to the size & scope of the federal government.
But we could start with public education and the IRS.

[PedroDaGr8]

I'm sorry I can write cursive but have not written cursive in almost a decade. Mainly because my hand writing takes after my father. There are many things to hang your hat on in this argument, an antiquated writing form which was designed to make writing with quill and nib pens easier is not one of them.

I agree on the fact of everyday math ability would be VERY useful. One thing that would help is if we got with things and finally switched to the metric system. No need to teach two systems of measurement. In general I can agree that the current system is not working. Teachers are too restricted, too much focus on standardized tests and not enough on how to learn and teaching facts.

[jazyd]

Just saw a report that in the last 21 years reading proficiency in Mississippi schools dropped from 86% to 79%.}. So much for all that learning from computers and being opened up to so much knowledge.
Printing is what you learn in kindergarten and then you advanced to actually have the ability to write. Pedro you are really wrong and too tied to computers.
One of our largest high schools just started handing out laptops to all their students so how long will it take before none of them will be able to go to a book and find something

[PedroDaGr8]

I
Just saw a report that in the last 21 years reading proficiency in Mississippi schools dropped from 86% to 79%.}. So much for all that learning from computers and being opened up to so much knowledge.
Printing is what you learn in kindergarten and then you advanced to actually have the ability to write. Pedro you are really wrong and too tied to computers.
One of our largest high schools just started handing out laptops to all their students so how long will it take before none of them will be able to go to a book and find something

Actually, I hand write about 20 full pgs a day, patent reasons. I just don't use cursive. I can if I wish, I'm just more comfortable in print. It comes out much easier to read, even if I'm in a hurry. The entire point of writing is getting the information across, printing does that just fine. Everything else is just decoration. Cursive had a point when traditional ink pens were used. Lifting up from the page could cause splatters and smears. Lift often and the page becomes an illegible mess. With quill pens they were often very brittle and could crack when the quill hit the page again. Cursive was designed to minimize lifting the pen from the page.

We don't teach short hand in schools anymore and no one has a problem with it. Though to be honest I would rather have learned that than cursive. It would have been much more useful in college. In time, cursive will likely be viewed as the anachronism that it is. I know it seems strange to say something that we all learned in school is an anachronism but the fact of the matter is that it is.

As for looking stuff up in books, one could argue how much longer books will be around. I actually believe books have their place. For example, textbooks should NEVER be digital. The ability to rapidly parse through a book to find a topic or page is not replicated in the digital domain. Other stuff like novels, digital all the way. One also cannot ignore the fact that digital has created one of the greatest times in humanity for the pursuit of knowledge. Within seconds we can bring up an encyclopedia almost infinitely more encompassing (and more accurate) than the best encyclopedia available two decades ago. This doesn't even begin to touch on the more specialist websites (such as imdb, good reads, etc). Let alone the concept of forums for passing on knowledge to others. Even more amazing we have access to all of this from a device in our pocket. The smart phone is the tricorder from Star Trek on steroids. Oh yeah, did I mention that access to said encyclopedia is free for everyone, no matter what part of the world they live in. Don't forget sites like Courses and EdX where if you desire to learn something in a more rigorous format you can take college classes FOR FREE. I have learned many things on Coursera that I would never have had a chance to learn anywhere else.

The drop in reading proficiency though is troublesome. I don't have any good answers to this. This is a time of great upheaval we are still reeling from the switch to digital. It will take some time to figure out. One thing I think that comes up is that digital technology is not a surrogate teacher. It's a supplementary teacher if you will but not a surrogate.

Playing partisan games (demonizing unions or cheering for unions, pushing to teach to the test, etc) is not going to solve the problem. All of this is secondary to the real problem, we aren't teaching the damn kids. It's like complaining about the scrape on your shoulder when you just cut your leg off. Something is broken here and it's not going to be solved by more testing or union breaking/formation. These topics are intended to distract from the bigger picture. It needs to be solved at the local level, if not at the school level because the only thing more incompetent than Congress is a county school board. Methods should be evaluated scientifically, discarding those that don't work encouraging those that do.

One thing that we NEED to do is get class sizes back down to a manageable level. Yes this means hiring more teachers and likely more school taxes but this is a tax I'm ok with. This nation was founded on the idea that all men are created equal. Truthful or not, equal access to a quality education goes a long way to bridging the gaps been the haves and the have nots. Bring class size back down and I bet you find that MANY of the modern problems disappear or are significantly reduced.

[suncat05]

You make some compelling points, Pedro. Some I agree with wholeheartedly, others not so much.
The Congress, the teachers unions, and others on the edges of those areas are not doing what is in the best interest of our kids. And I still contend that our schools are a local issue, and should not be administered to by Congress. Operating our schools is, and always should be a local/individual state issue. The feds should not be involved.
I agree about class size needing to be smaller, and I also agree that if it means hiring more teachers and raising taxes, then so be it. That is an investment in our children and for our/their futures.
I also agree about shorthand vs cursive. But I do believe that cursive should be taught and used for certain situations. IMO, shorthand should be mandatory for our kids. It would make note taking in classes, and after school years are completed, in the business/work environment so much easier to deal with.
And again, I must bring up this point: using computers is great, I love them, they make life so much easier. But what if something happens and power sources do not operate as they do now? Or not at all? Or only intermittently? Then handwriting is going to become important again. It will be necessary.
There are some basic things that we should never get away from learning. JMHO.

[Darrell KSR]

I wish been taught shorthand during school at some point. I think that would have been one of the most valuable skills to have learned in future life.

[MickintheHam]

I wish been taught shorthand during school at some point. I think that would have been one of the most valuable skills to have learned in future life.

As part of our HS college prep program we had to take a class of combined typing and shorthand. In life I have found the typing skill to far outweigh the shorthand. I seldom used the shorthand after Freshman English Comp and History 108. Matter of fact I am embarrassed at overall how poor my handwriting has become from lack of use. I have become very illegible with my cursive and lettering which was once outstanding is now shabby at best.

[Darrell KSR]

I took Typing I (manual typewriter, carbon paper) in 10th grade because I wanted to learn how to type.

I took Typing II in 11th grade because I was the only boy in the class, and thought it would be a great place to get dates.

Instead, I just learned to type really well. Sigh.

[suncat05]

This is not intended as a slight towards you, specifically, Mick, but most attorneys, judges, & healthcare professionals generally have atrocious handwriting. Lots of cops, too, just so you know I'm not picking on you

I think that "most" people that do have to do handwritten work of some sort tend to have very bad handwriting, most likely because of time constraints.

[KeithKSR]

In math the problem I have with Common Core is that are too many leaps in content, which creates huge gaps.

Most of the issues I see are in reading, where the Common Core dictates the reading of specific passages, books, etc and offers specific lesson concepts. These tend to be very socialistic and have a very left wing slant.

Suncat, the NEA really supports the Common Core and it's leftist slant. The NEA needs to stay out of politics and has no business contributing to political campaigns. The only reason I am a member is because of the liability issues, which is a huge factor in our overly litigious society.

Our kids are tested way too much and spend way too much time with testing.

Pedro, your example of writing 20 pages a day is a good example of why cursive should be taught, as is taking notes for classes. If one can print and write in cursive there are two options available, if one knows only how to print options are limited.

[KeithKSR]

This is not intended as a slight towards you, specifically, Mick, but most attorneys, judges, & healthcare professionals generally have atrocious handwriting. Lots of cops, too, just so you know I'm not picking on you

I think that "most" people that do have to do handwritten work of some sort tend to have very bad handwriting, most likely because of time constraints.

Handwriting tends to be worse bad among those who think faster than they write.

[jazyd]

Because I transferred to a new school in 10th grade and the new school didn't offer as many courses as my previous school I ended up taking 2 years of typing and 2 years of shorthand. I did use shorthand in college alot for notes. Also typing has stayed with me all these years. I was offered a job out of hs with the railroad looking for a male stenographer, turned it down, dumb, could be retired today at a nice retirement. LOL It was also a way to meet girls, like Darrell I was the only one in either class second year and was better than any of the girls.

Keith, my daughter teaches 5th grade and her speciality is reading and she has a huge problem with Common Core.

I work with teens alot, both at my business and with the cheer and dance teams I work with. They may be smart, are great at computers and phones, but their basics of reading, math, english are atrocious. They can look up anything in a second, but do they learn vs just finding the answer and going about their business. They are allowed things in schools that should be given F's for. Like leaving open the number 8 so it looks like a 3, or in another school they allow them to turn their S's on the side so the first tip points up and the second points down because the kids think its cute. And showing Finding Elmo still baffles my mind. I find very few understand multiplication tables, they can't spell whether they print of write, because of texting.
And Keith is correct about being in the union, it is to cover them from liability

[Darrell KSR]

It was also a way to meet girls, like Darrell I was the only one in either class

Hope it worked out better for you than it did for me! ;)

[KeithKSR]

Keith, my daughter teaches 5th grade and her speciality is reading and she has a huge problem with Common Core.

Reading is riddled with left wing socialism. I imagine the science standards will lean heavily toward climate change.

[jazyd]

I could lie and say it did :).


QUOTE=Darrell KSR;200110]Hope it worked out better for you than it did for me! ;)[/QUOTE]

[jazyd]

Keith she has been lucky in that her principle gave her some freedom.. When she taught kindergarten and first grade she made every child read every day instead do longer naps and play time. She has used the same idea in 5 th grade by given them reading assignments in BOOKS, rather than using outlines. Her kids enjoyed it, read a lot, learned and the parents were happy. I am very proud of her as a teacher and mom. She needs to get her masters and become the districts reading coordinator, she would shake it up :)


Reading is riddled with left wing socialism. I imagine the science standards will lean heavily toward climate change.

[CitizenBBN]

Pedro -- I have to say that union breaking, as part of the broader solution, would go a long way towards solving the problem.

Not that the unions are the core problem, and certainly not that all teachers are just in it for selfish reasons reflected in the union's lobbying efforts. Far from it, I see the union as only holding those teachers back for the most part. I agree that just focusing on such things won't get us very far.

But what has to be broken is the entire string of government top down education, and that means breaking the unions whose position is guaranteed by that system. There were no unions when parents hired the teacher and he/she stayed with parents as part of their compensation.

I know that's not feasible, but we cannot lose sight of what worked and how to stay on that basic course. When de'Tocqueville wrote about America and compared it to Europe one key difference was that America had a decentralized education system that was open to everyone not just those with the proper station. It made a huge difference in the competitiveness of our nation, and that was driven by parents largely wanting their kids to learn and doing something about it without government prodding or dictating.

We need to simply bring the free market back to education. Every child in this country gets a voucher for whatever that county/state's education budget is per child, they can spend it anywhere they want, public or private. No more captured audiences and children trapped in bad schools for lack of money while the school administrators continue to get their bonuses.

It's imperfect, everything is, but it would move us to a far better place, but yes it means taking political, structural action to allow the incentives to be realigned to what they should be. We had a better education system when no one in government did anything about education and local parents got together and hired a teacher and donated some land and put up a roof and four walls.

We have to have more than that now, but keeping it simple and direct and without government interference is still the best way to get there.

Decentralize and create competition for dollars. The single best way to get better product ever invented.

[CitizenBBN]

I should note that I don't see that as political. I see it as inherently a-political. Remove the politics from it as much as possible. If San Fran parents want to teach kids stuff I think is Communist that's their business, just don't tell kentucky parents they have to teach it. No more democrat and republican positions on it at all as they aren't involved at all. With a voucher states could try to run their own schools or get out entirely, but we cripple BOTH parties being able to do too much influencing of curriculum or other things.

[MickintheHam]

This is not intended as a slight towards you, specifically, Mick, but most attorneys, judges, & healthcare professionals generally have atrocious handwriting. Lots of cops, too, just so you know I'm not picking on you

I think that "most" people that do have to do handwritten work of some sort tend to have very bad handwriting, most likely because of time constraints.

My problem is I almost can't write. Poor execution and even when I do get it down on paper, I can't read it, much less anyone else.

[jazyd]

As long as they stick to actual history and the constitution if they take federal money. if they want to teach that it was the USA fault on WWII and japan was just defending itself, fine, but do it on their own dime and don't take one dime from the feds. Same with Universities that teach how they wanted things to be rather than facts, or hiring people from India that can't speak English intelligently and paying them good money for students not to understand them.:evilgrin0007:


I should note that I don't see that as political. I see it as inherently a-political. Remove the politics from it as much as possible. If San Fran parents want to teach kids stuff I think is Communist that's their business, just don't tell kentucky parents they have to teach it. No more democrat and republican positions on it at all as they aren't involved at all. With a voucher states could try to run their own schools or get out entirely, but we cripple BOTH parties being able to do too much influencing of curriculum or other things.

[dan_bgblue]

Jazy, my grandson, 6 years old, can add, subtract, multiply and divide numbers in his head if we keep the problems in the double digit numbers and the answers are whole numbers. He can count money better than the teller you mentioned. He may own a fortune 500 company by the time he is 15.:winking0011:

[PedroDaGr8]

Same with Universities that teach how they wanted things to be rather than facts, or hiring people from India that can't speak English intelligently and paying them good money for students not to understand them.:evilgrin0007:

Careful Jazy your racism/xenophobia is showing. As someone who has a master's in chemistry, I have incredible amounts of experience with Indian grad students. I have YET to find one that couldn't speak English fluently. They speak a slightly different form of English (British English) but to call it unintelligent because it is slightly different from your own smacks of racism. India, being a British colony, has a long history with English and to this day they start teaching British English at an early age. They only major difference is the accent; once again to call their accent unintelligent is completely racist and xenophobic. Just because you haven't expanded your boundaries and gotten used to people of different cultures doesn't make them or their English unintelligent. Note, none of this applies to Chinese grad students. They don't have the same history with English that Indians do. As such some speak it very well, albeit with an accent. Others, quite frankly, can barely speak it at all.

Also, foreign graduate students are hired here because quite simply many American students are too lazy/dumb/have no desire to pursue higher education. They aren't displacing American students, they are filling holes left because American students don't care. Without their work in labs, almost all research universities would be left in shambles. These students work their ass off doing research, paying taxes on what they earn, starting families here, making friends here. Often to be told, sorry screw your life you have built. Go back to India/China/Germany/etc. Just because you have a PhD from one of our schools doesn't mean you are fit to live here. It's a travesty that I've witnessed countless times first hand. So sorry if I don't have compassion for the poor closed minded undergraduate students but if anyone is getting screwed its the grad students.

[bigsky]

So, my handwriting has deteriorated as I do all by keyboard, AND the arthralgia in my hands gets worse. My math skills have shrunk as I use the calculator, the HP12C and desktop adding machine types both, and spreadsheets. In college we knew the CPA exam didn't allow calculators at that time so my buddy and I attempted all math in our heads. I also ran a cash register at a grocery store in high school and for fun I would like John Henry, try and beat the machine (by keeping the running total in my head).

I say this because I still function well without those skills. But I don't think, Pedro, that either are vestigial remnants of a by-gone era, but effective brain development activities, and "'riting and 'rithmatic" served a larger role in kids mental development that they now miss, and as anyone who watches a young adult struggle to make change, so we all do.

[PedroDaGr8]

I say this because I still function well without those skills. But I don't think, Pedro, that either are vestigial remnants of a by-gone era, but effective brain development activities, and "'riting and 'rithmatic" served a larger role in kids mental development that they now miss, and as anyone who watches a young adult struggle to make change, so we all do.

You make an excellent point sky about brain development. Much of the benefit of learning calculus comes not from the math itself but the way it forces you to adopt new ways of thinking. I seldom use calculus in day to day stuff but because of the way it pushed my mental boundaries I still think it was a highly useful class.

[KeithKSR]

You make an excellent point sky about brain development. Much of the benefit of learning calculus comes not from the math itself but the way it forces you to adopt new ways of thinking. I seldom use calculus in day to day stuff but because of the way it pushed my mental boundaries I still think it was a highly useful class.

Today we try to force the brains of our youth to perform in ways it is not yet ready. In math we force algebra onto kids who are not yet ready to handle abstract principles and who are still concrete thinkers.

[jazyd]

I am do damn racist and I am around Indians weekly and I do not understand them nor does anyone who works for me. Nor can I understand those I must speak with when I must call a company with a problem and my call is directed to India and the jerk tries to tell me he is in Miss. Nor can any of us understand the one in customer service of one of the mfg's I buy from, I just hang up if she answers. And friends of mine who have students at Ole Miss, MSU. USM, LSU hear complaints from their kids about profs that they can't understand. I can understand all my customer service people I deal with that have Jersey or New York accents, Midwest, southern. Western . But I refuse to deal with those from Pakistan, India or China. If I can't understand what they are trying to say it is a waste of my time.
And I get real pissed when they...Indians... come in my business and then try to screw us out of money by demanding a discount, bringing back shoes that are filthy and 9 months old and mad because they no longer fit their daughters feet and want a new pair free. Or they don't use our banks and just loan money to each other to buy more hotels and bring in more family for more hotels that they let go to crisp, and yes I was a sales rep for 18 yrs traveling 4 states and most of us did all we could to keep from staying in an Indian owned hotel.

Rea

Careful Jazy your racism/xenophobia is showing. As someone who has a master's in chemistry, I have incredible amounts of experience with Indian grad students. I have YET to find one that couldn't speak English fluently. They speak a slightly different form of English (British English) but to call it unintelligent undersbecause it is slightly different from your own smacks of racism. India, being a British colony, has a long history with English and to this day they start teaching British English at an early age. They only e company with a problem ted to Indiaand my call us understand direcmajor difference is the accent; once again to call their accent unintelligent is completely racist and xenophobic. Just because you haven't expanded your boundaries and gotten used to people of different cultures doesn't make them or their English unintelligent. Note, none of this applies to Chinese grad students. They don't have the same history with English that Indians do. As such some speak it very well, albeit with an accent. Others, quite frankly, can barely speak it at all.

Also, foreign graduate students are hired here because quite simply many American students are too lazy/dumb/have no desire to pursue higher education. They aren't displacing American students, they are filling holes left because American students don't care. Without their work in labs, almost all research universities would be left in shambles. These students work their ass off doing research, paying taxes on what they earn, starting families here, making friends here. Often to be told, sorry screw your life you have built. Go back to India/China/Germany/etc. Just because you have a PhD from one of our schools doesn't mean you are fit to live here. It's a travesty that I've witnessed countless times first hand. So sorry if I don't have compassion for the poor closed minded undergraduate students but if anyone is getting screwed its the grad students.

[jazyd]

Sky, you and I were the same racing the cash register except I did it as a child. I refuse to text in symbols but use full words and commas and periods. I don't use my calculator unless it's must. I use my brain as much as possible. I am not a computer person, I still do things the old fashion way in many cases but I can spell, add, multiply, divide in my head. My handwriting is still good and I can solve a problem in my business by using my brain instead of a phone. Ex..this weekend I noticed one of our teen workers had the look on her face that told me she needed to ask me something. She said she didnt know what dance class her customers child was in. I was dumbfounded and told her I didn't know either. So I did what she should have done, asked the customer two simple questions, where did the girl take lessons and how old was the girl. Solved and pointed to our book with all the studios and told Taylor what class the girl was in. Easy, brain, think, done



QUOTE=bigsky;200610]So, my handwriting has deteriorated as I do all by keyboard, AND the arthralgia in my hands gets worse. My math skills have shrunk as I use the calculator, the HP12C and desktop adding machine types both, and spreadsheets. In college we knew the CPA exam didn't allow calculators at that time so my buddy and I attempted all math in our heads. I also ran a cash register at a grocery store in high school and for fun I would like John Henry, try and beat the machine (by keeping the running total in my head).

I say this because I still function well without those skills. But I don't think, Pedro, that either are vestigial remnants of a by-gone era, but effective brain development activities, and "'riting and 'rithmatic" served a larger role in kids mental development that they now miss, and as anyone who watches a young adult struggle to make change, so we all do.[/QUOTE]

[bigsky]

You make an excellent point sky about brain development. Much of the benefit of learning calculus comes not from the math itself but the way it forces you to adopt new ways of thinking. I seldom use calculus in day to day stuff but because of the way it pushed my mental boundaries I still think it was a highly useful class. just gonna admit it, I sweet talked and charmed the young grad student with the kind personality calculus teacher. So I did get an "A" and a five credit A at that, but I'm guessing I missed the point. I do know outstanding students who did though and are better for it. I envision some dark patch of gray matter, synapsis barely firing, labelled "calculus".