Whats your take on the VA Scandal?

[Doc]

I'll assume there is no need to link the background story because unless you live in a cave in the middle of a desert, then you know the basics

My take on it

First, nobody.. and I repeat, nobody died because of the wait time at the VA. They died because they had Cancer or they had liver failure or they have kidney disease. I've seen the families come on and say my husband or dad died because he wasn't seen by a doctor at the VA. That's incorrect. He died because he had a disease.

Second, if they were not happy with the service at the VA, pick your ass up and go to another hospital. There is nothing that says you can't. I know if my wife was peeing blood by the gallon and the first hospital we went to would not see her, I'd go somewhere else even if I had to pull out my credit card. Granted, the VA is suppose to provide the service but if not try taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Third, why does this shock anybody? My wife worked for the VA system for 2 decades back in the 80's and 90's. Its a typical government system filled with inefficiency. Duh! What government run system isn't? Been the DMV lately? The post office? The tax office? It's a government office run by bureaucrats who are inefficient so why does anybody believe that for some reason the VA hospital system would be the only government system that is well run?

Fourth, republicans are going to end up looking foolish because of all the previous faux rage. I've long said if you look for crap to gripe about and create, when an actual problem arises, your previous false bitching will minimize it. Well welcome to that situation. They complained about golf outings and extravagant spending on parties and Kenya and stupid #### to the point that this looks like just some more made up #### to a whole bunch of folks.

Fifth, as for Shinseki, he is the head of the VA overall. Why would he know what was going on in Phoenix? That's like asking Cal to resign because a water boy was taking towels. OK, hold him responsible but look at the person in charge at the Phoenix VA as the person responsible for the problems there, and its that person who should have addressed the issue and then informed his superior. The head of the entire VA isn't going to be aware of what is going on in each hospital. There are 153 medical centers and over 1,400 sites of care so is he suppose to know about "secret lists" in specific hospitals?

Six, this isn't a new problem. Bush knew about it and Obama did as well. Obama did nothing about it until now....and even now hasn't done squat. His approach will be the same as it will be for everything else from F&F to Benghazi to the IRS etc... which is nothing but delay, delay, delay then after 6-12 months say its old news. IMO the reason he does this is two fold. First he has no idea how to fix it and second is its more important to not taint his image. The real problem isn't the "secret lists" but rather the inefficiency of the government and the fact that the administration knew when they took office that there was an issue, promised to address it and failed to do so. Additionally, its an example of federally run health care and anybody who does not see this as the ultimate goal in what the progressive want when it comes to health care (aka the single payer to the federally run system) is fooling themselves.

[suncat05]

I kind of agree with Doc in some respects. And disagree in others.
I agree that most of these former troops that died may have had serious health issues that may have been way more serious than they knew, or wanted to admit to. But that is anyone, to include those who have not served, who are not eligible for healthcare service from the VA.
Yes, the VA is very inefficient, and just as Doc correctly pointed out, it's just like any other government run entity, mostly wasteful and inefficient and slow as hell.
Now, on the flip side of this coin is guys like me. I have a job with decent(not great, but decent) insurance benefits. I have chosen to go to the VA for most(but not all!) of my healthcare needs, but the reason why I do so is mostly for financial reasons. It is much more economically feasible for me to get my healthcare at the VA than from a private practicing physician. Nothing against ANY of those guys, as I do from time to time go to a non-VA related entity, but the reason for that is purely because of the wait time at the VA for specialized needs, such as podiatry or dermatology issues. The waiting times at a VA hospital for critical services is unreal and unreasonable, and it's not right. For instance, when I had my carpal tunnel surgeries, I initially had to wait a couple of months for the first surgery, and another 6 weeks or so for the second surgery. Yeah, I didn't care for the wait, but the monetary cost to me was almost zilch. And the actual surgeries went great, and were 100% successful. So, at that, I'm satisfied.
Now, were these other things like what has been alleged in Phoenix been going on? I believe, in some cases, yes, and in other cases, no. You're dealing with human beings here, and just like the general population, former troops can complain and bitch with the best of 'em! Is the VA slow and inefficient? Yes. And no. My dealings with the VA have almost all been good. However, here is the caveat between myself and those who really need the VA's help: my needs are very basic and straightforward, as I am in relatively decent health for a 60 year old man. I don't have any combat injuries like these troops coming back from either of the sandboxes. I could have had some, yes, from times deployed in the Middle East way back when, or from times deployed to Central or South America way back when, but I was never that seriously injured in any of those actions, so my medical needs are not serious, or even considered chronic. Very basic treatment needed, for which I thank God every day.
The last thing I want to comment on is this: do you really want to see what MOST federally run government healthcare is going to be like for you under Obamacare? Just go to ANY VA hospital, and you'll quickly find out. And THAT is exactly what it will be like: long lines, long waits, inefficient services for those who really need it because the money won't be there, lack of doctors and other medical type personnel. So if any of you think medical assistance under Obamacare will be any different than the VA, all I can tell you is that you need to flush out your friggin' headgear and look around you.
One last thing here........while I have no complaints about my VA healthcare, I feel that I am the exception, not the rule. I have heard plenty of other veterans say that the times of waiting and the service they're received wasn't nearly as good as it could, or should have been. But again, my needs are simple, whereas theirs may not be.

[KeithKSR]

The secret waiting lists appears to have been systemic. All the VAs did not come up with the same methodology without some direction from DC.

I doubt anything happens. Obama claimed he is "mad as hell" which is as far as it gets when his administration is in the midst of getting caught being corrupt.

[CitizenBBN]

I disagree these vets just needed to go elsehwere. No doubt it would have been good for them individually to do so, but that assumes they could afford to do so. Many could not, so it wasn't a real option. Further that thinking to me just changes us from the subject as they should not be required to do so for their care.

As for dying due to lack of being seen, we need a lot more data to know how many may have died prematurely from lack of treatment. We can't assume they'd have all lived nor can we assume they were all destined to die on that timeline. Overlooked in that is maybe the more important issue: quality of life. Were they getting the pain and other meds to make their remaining time more tolerable? were there things that could have been done to mitigate symptoms? I imagine that is where a lot of suffering has been created by the inefficiency of the VA, and that counts for something. A lot in fact.

Where I agree is this is absolutely the future of health care for us all if the progressives/Leftists have their way. They see government as the altruistic, benevolent solution to everything, and the free competition that drives efficiency as evil. As comedian Will Durst said years ago we will see hospitals with all the compassion and efficiency of the Department of Motor Vehicles. In their world every failure that is due to the regulation and corruption of governent can be fixed with more government and regulation. All in the name of social justice, b/c it's more important for everyone to have the same material standing, even if that requires we lower it for us all to the lowest common denominator. If everyone can't be rich everyone needs to be poor, and if everyone can't have around the clock high end medical care then no one should have it.

The free market approach were more money gets you more medical care is unacceptable, even if the alternative is everyone having worse care, the equality of it is more important than how many people have to suffer or go untreated.

The irony is they are lowering the standard of living for even the poorest among us as they bleed resources from every part of the economy that could be used to provide health care, jobs, etc. and use it to cover the vast overhead of regulation and bureaucrats, economic sumps that hurt the poorest the most in the end.

Health care's failure is all about the the elimination of the free market for health care services. I won't go into it here, but it's not a very complex walk through how supply and demand has been so corrupted and distorted by government regulation and collusion with the health care industry to prevent a sound and functioning market that would provide efficient services. Yes the hospitals and doctors are in on it, and they're about to get their just reward for making their various deals with the devil all these years.

[Doc]

I disagree these vets just needed to go elsehwere. No doubt it would have been good for them individually to do so, but that assumes they could afford to do so. Many could not, so it wasn't a real option. Further that thinking to me just changes us from the subject as they should not be required to do so for their care.
What I'm saying is that if the care I'm getting, or not getting, is inadequate then I'm going elsewhere. I do that regardless of what type of business or service is rendered but especially if its healthcare. I can guarantee that if my wife or kids were getting substandard care I'd go somewhere else and figure out how to pay for it later. I didn't say they "just needed to go elsewhere". I said they should take personal responsibility. You go to another hospital and get treatment first and formost, then worry about how its paid for. Me, if I was getting substandard care, I'd go thru a patient advocate (that is what my wife best friend in the system did) and if I didn't get the needed results then I'd hire a lawyer and sue. In the meantime, I WOULD GET TREATMENT ELSEWHERE even if I had to go into debt to do so

As for dying due to lack of being seen, we need a lot more data to know how many may have died prematurely from lack of treatment. We can't assume they'd have all lived nor can we assume they were all destined to die on that timeline. Overlooked in that is maybe the more important issue: quality of life. Were they getting the pain and other meds to make their remaining time more tolerable? were there things that could have been done to mitigate symptoms? I imagine that is where a lot of suffering has been created by the inefficiency of the VA, and that counts for something. A lot in fact.
No, we can assume they died of whatever disease they had. They died of Cancer or kidney disease or whatever the reason they went to the hospital was. The hospital did not kill them. Had they been given the incorrect medication or an incorrect dose of a medication by the hospital, then the hospital would have killed them but not being treated is not the reason they died. They died due to a disease, plain and simple. The relatives of these people have gone on TV where they have done interviews claiming their relatives died because of the VA wait times. This is inaccurate. No, their relatives died because they had a disease, a disease that killed them. Wait times might have affected survival (but I doubt this) or more likely prolonged life but the wait times did not cause the disease that killed them.

Where I agree is this is absolutely the future of health care for us all if the progressives/Leftists have their way. They see government as the altruistic, benevolent solution to everything, and the free competition that drives efficiency as evil. As comedian Will Durst said years ago we will see hospitals with all the compassion and efficiency of the Department of Motor Vehicles. In their world every failure that is due to the regulation and corruption of governent can be fixed with more government and regulation. All in the name of social justice, b/c it's more important for everyone to have the same material standing, even if that requires we lower it for us all to the lowest common denominator. If everyone can't be rich everyone needs to be poor, and if everyone can't have around the clock high end medical care then no one should have it.

The free market approach were more money gets you more medical care is unacceptable, even if the alternative is everyone having worse care, the equality of it is more important than how many people have to suffer or go untreated.
If you will note that very few medical breakthroughs come via the government/VA system. Logically speaking, you would think that a system filled with amputee's would lead the world in research into treating them but they don't. The reason is because there is no incentive to. Like all public sector jobs, there is no reward for having inititive. There is no reward for efficiency.

The irony is they are lowering the standard of living for even the poorest among us as they bleed resources from every part of the economy that could be used to provide health care, jobs, etc. and use it to cover the vast overhead of regulation and bureaucrats, economic sumps that hurt the poorest the most in the end.

Health care's failure is all about the the elimination of the free market for health care services. I won't go into it here, but it's not a very complex walk through how supply and demand has been so corrupted and distorted by government regulation and collusion with the health care industry to prevent a sound and functioning market that would provide efficient services. Yes the hospitals and doctors are in on it, and they're about to get their just reward for making their various deals with the devil all these years.
The VA is the perfect example of why Univeral Health Care won't work. Liberals are claiming its not "Obama care" and they are correct, its not. Obama care did not go as far as the liberals wanted. Liberals wanted a single payer, federally run, universal health care system which is what the VA system is. Fortunately they didn't get EVERYTHING they wanted. ...

[Doc]

The secret waiting lists appears to have been systemic. All the VAs did not come up with the same methodology without some direction from DC.

I doubt anything happens. Obama claimed he is "mad as hell" which is as far as it gets when his administration is in the midst of getting caught being corrupt.

Employees move throughout the system so what goes on in one typically makes its way around the system soon enough. My wife worked at 5 different VA's in a 2 year span (UK, Tuskegee AL, Portland OR, Muskogee OK, Montgomery AL)... and that wasn't atypical. She never worked in DC. She did an internship in Portland and that put her in an administrative position. In fact she helped staff the VA in West Palm Beach when it opened which was one of the reasons we moved to FL. She never got any directions from Washington, so I disagree. I do not believe this is any conspiracy that this is coming from "upstairs". I believe the opposite. I believe that the folks at the individual hospitals said how can we make it appear as if we are doing better than we are? Someone who transfered in said "we had the same problem and this is how we did it. Washington will never know".

As for Obama... more important that he maintain his image. Oh, he needs to be "mad as hell". He will be "mad as hell" for 6 months. Tell everybody he is looking into it for 6 months. Then after 6 months claim its old news and that its just a phoney scandal drummed up by the republicans to make him look bad

[CitizenBBN]

Doc, I agree with personal responsibility, in a big way, but it's still not a given to assume they had other options financially. You'd go into debt, maybe someone would rather put up with the pain and suffering rather than leave financial burdens or even to take what they perceive as charity.

No doubt some just sat around and complained rather than taking action but I"m saying it's not safe to assuem they all were in that boat.

As for dying b/c of lack of treatment, by definition if we are to be strict to the language and facts NO ONE has ever been "saved", in that everyone eventually dies. What happens is not "saved lives" but "prolonged lives". The question then becomes one of quality of life. If you save a life and it can go on to be happy and healthy for decades versus just tacking on a few weeks of continued suffering.

But can someone seeking treatment for cancer have many years added to their lives with proper and timely treatment? is that of no value to you b/c they eventually die? What if they get 10 more years and then it comes back? What if it's a disease where with proper care they can live decades? Did every single one of these people have NO chance of a greatly extended life?

What about suffering? were they getting pain medications and other abating treatments simply to add quality of life even if not extending it?

I get that not every person who has claimed it would have been "cured" by timely care, but I'd bet most could have had their quality of life improved and many could have had their life prolonged.

Those people may not be stating their cases with strict accuracy, but that doesn't change the fact that they do have a case.


As for the rest we're of course in total agreement. IMO the VA should be shut down and privatized out. Military medical care should extend to active duty only, with stateside recovery and other things left to the private sector as much as possible in order to insure better efficiency and care.

At least as much as there is any shred of a free market in medical care, which is a stretch. Even privatizing the VA would only make small gains at best b/c the rules and regs are all still there and in the end the government is still really in charge.

[Doc]

Let me put it this way....

A cat comes into my clinic with its kidney values thru the roof. Cats in kidney failure. I don't put it on fluids and the cat dies in two days. The cause of death was kidney failure. If I put the cat on fluids and it improves but dies 6 months later when its kidneys shut down, the cause of death was kidney failure. In both cases the kidney failure is what killed the cat. It wasn't the treatment or the failure of the treatment. Treatment (fluids) prolonged the cats life and might have curtailed the suffering, pain, etc (all good things) but what killed the cat was the disease. It might be semantics but I suspect I see this a bit like you see it when people claim that guns kill people. In my mind hospitals don't kill people, diseases kill people.


One thing I find interesting is that congress was unaware. Surprsingly, this broke in Phoenix VA. Isn't John McCain from Arizona and a Veteran? As a veteran, would he not use that service? I mean if its such a quality thing then I'd expect him to use it, right? And if it was so bad how was he unaware or is he in such good health that he never has to use it?

Or is it that as a Senator he doesn't have to stoop to use the services that is reserved for the lowly peasants and peons, instead he elects to utilize the services reserved for the elitist government officials!

[CitizenBBN]

Doc I think we see this pretty much the same, and for terminal patients I agree. I'm just doing those folks a favor by adjusting their argument for them. They should be focused on quality of life even for terminal patients, but if someone had a removable/curable disease and wasn't seen that's a different situation altogether. Like if you had a cat come in with an operable condition and just didn't get around to it till the cat died.

I don't know that to be the case or not though, I haen't watched specific families and their claims. I'm betting it's a mix of stuff that the VA couldn't have done much about with some cases they coudl have helped. I just hope there werent' any who could be cured and weren't.

As for the Congress I have no doubt they knew it was bad. This is just politics. I remember as a boy in the 70s with vets coming back and the complaints, this is an OLD situation and these SOBs in Congress vote to cut the stuff tha tdoesn't show as easy, like the VA, then are shocked when the care isn't the best money can buy, when they're the ones that decided to not spend on it. Veterans issues are a joke of a political football where far too many talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Put McCain right there with them. I'm sure he uses his REALLY "best money can buy" care on his Senate plan that is separate from every other federal employee. He's an elitist like the rest despite the very powerful resume that got him into that position.

Funny you mention the gun thing, I'm maybe going to post about this shooting in Cali. The difference in the analogy between guns and hospitals is that guns are inanimate objects that can take no action on their own. Hospitals are full of sentient people who can make decisions and take proactive steps to alleviate suffering and even cure some folks of a particular ailment. No argument that's not permanent, they can die of it later or of something else, but they can on their own help or not help people. A gun just sits there till the Rapture if no one picks it up. The analogy I 'd see is between the gun and a scalpel. It can be used to save a life or to take one. Granted there aren't 300 million of them, so it's not an analogy to scale I admit.

[KeithKSR]

Employees move throughout the system so what goes on in one typically makes its way around the system soon enough. My wife worked at 5 different VA's in a 2 year span (UK, Tuskegee AL, Portland OR, Muskogee OK, Montgomery AL)... and that wasn't atypical. She never worked in DC. She did an internship in Portland and that put her in an administrative position. In fact she helped staff the VA in West Palm Beach when it opened which was one of the reasons we moved to FL. She never got any directions from Washington, so I disagree. I do not believe this is any conspiracy that this is coming from "upstairs". I believe the opposite. I believe that the folks at the individual hospitals said how can we make it appear as if we are doing better than we are? Someone who transfered in said "we had the same problem and this is how we did it. Washington will never know".

As for Obama... more important that he maintain his image. Oh, he needs to be "mad as hell". He will be "mad as hell" for 6 months. Tell everybody he is looking into it for 6 months. Then after 6 months claim its old news and that its just a phoney scandal drummed up by the republicans to make him look bad

Appears the problem is systemic and the VA folks in DC have known about it for years.

[Doc]

Appears the problem is systemic and the VA folks in DC have known about it for years.

I agree that its a systemic problem and has been for years. I'll also add its been well known for years and its quite funny the outrage that is now being expressed. This is nothing new nor is it anything coming to light.

[jazyd]

Doc, I realize it has been bad for years but I do believe it has gotten much worse under Obama than it had been previously, at least my WWII Marine dad says it has.


I agree that its a systemic problem and has been for years. I'll also add its been well known for years and its quite funny the outrage that is now being expressed. This is nothing new nor is it anything coming to light.

[SgtBob]

'Fixing' the problems at the VA assuring are veterans are taken care of is one of the speeches this current president made awhile back. I don't give a crap about the others before this man breaking their word. This man acknowledged a problem and stated he was going to take care of it. This is also the 2nd highly decorated general who retired from the military and became a political hack. Shame on them.


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[Doc]

'Fixing' the problems at the VA assuring are veterans are taken care of is one of the speeches this current president made awhile back. I don't give a crap about the others before this man breaking their word. This man acknowledged a problem and stated he was going to take care of it. This is also the 2nd highly decorated general who retired from the military and became a political hack. Shame on them.


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I agree however logistically fixing it is near impossible because the problem is the system itself. You have a huge federally run program with no incentive to improve, just like every other federally run system.

[UKHistory]

Keith,

A smoking gun may be found in regards to direction from DC. But I think it is unlikely. All agencies have performance measures they are supposed to meet. Meeting those measures is the difference in good ratings, bonues, etc.

A lot high ranking people can review records and see they won't make their numbers so they fudge the numbers: CYA.

Just like at GM people knew the issue; considered the financial cost to correct the mistake and elected to let people die instead of fixing the problem.

Government does not always work in a logical way and not everything is planned out. But like minded people who don't to admit their failings will fudge numbers or hide the dirty dishes or whatver.


The secret waiting lists appears to have been systemic. All the VAs did not come up with the same methodology without some direction from DC.

I doubt anything happens. Obama claimed he is "mad as hell" which is as far as it gets when his administration is in the midst of getting caught being corrupt.

[SgtBob]

I agree however logistically fixing it is near impossible because the problem is the system itself. You have a huge federally run program with no incentive to improve, just like every other federally run system.

Agree.


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