Shotgun handguns

[kritikalcat]

A discussion came up about this on Facebook. Just wondering why it is illegal to own / transfer a sawed off shotgun (well, without going through NFA/Class III hoops) but you can legally own a handgun that fires shotgun shells?

I assume the answer is simply the way the law is written.

[dan_bgblue]

CBBN will be around, and yes it does have to do with the laws

:food-smiley-007:

[CitizenBBN]

In short, yes. It has to do with whether ATF classifies the weapon as a shotgun or a pistol at the time of manufacture, but there are particular constraints on their decision that go back to the NFA.

The Taurus Judge and the S&W Governor got classified as handguns b/c they are intended to be fired with one hand, but also b/c they shoot 410 but really only by coincidence in that they are chambered for 45LC or 454 Casull and have rifled barrels. In the end it is up to ATF to say "that's a handgun" and then it can be sub 18"/26". They have approved a few guns that would be rifles in full length that way as well, but it's not easy.

In their case it's b/c it is to be fired with one hand and has a rifled barrel and fires common pistol calibers, but it was reported (with great confusion still out there) that Taurus 28Ga model was declared a SBS by ATF b/c it didn't relate to a common pistol caliber. Basically it just got too big for their comfort. In the end it's like any bureaucracy, they can find a rule somewhere to decide whatever they want. They allowed the 410 on the basis of caliber and rifled barrel, but may have disallowed the 28Ga. Supposedly some were here for the SHOT show in 2011 and were declared SBSs and haven't been seen since, though Taurus has denied that ruling.

In California even the 410 Judge is considered s SBS and is illegal in that state. A lot of people are surprised ATF ever approved it. The rifling in the barrel is actually a little more shallow than normal to compromise between firing buckshot and still stabilizing 45 pistol rounds. ATF could have just as easily said that wasn't allowed IMO.

It also has to come at time of manufacture, ATF is HUGE on that part. That's true for making a SBS or SBR but also any number of other rules. that gun was approved for manufacture and if you modify it enough to reclassify it in any way you've just illegally "made" a firearm.

As an example of how quirky and piecemeal it is, google the Harrington and Richardson Handy Gun 410. It was a single shot 410 that was being sold in 1934 when the NFA was passed. it was deemed a short barrel shotgun (no rifling) and put on the list. If it wasn't registered and the $200 tax paid it's illegal. it shoots ONE 410 round and is more than 12" long overall and is illegal, but the Judge shoots FIVE identical rounds and is far easier to conceal and is legal. there are minute technical reasons for that (rifled barrel, shot with one hand) but the big picture reality of that situation is pretty funny. The far less dangerous weapon is the one that is illegal.

So Judge 410 - legal
Bigger, lower firepower Handy Gun 410 - illegal
Raging Judge 28 Ga - illegal

Another good example:

uzi Pistol 9mm -legal
Uzi rifle with short barrel, MUCH bigger gun same capacity and caliber - illegal.
TEC 9 9mm shorter than uzi same capacity - legal pistol

Honestly IMO the short barrel rifle category should be dropped altogether. It's outdated. In 1934 you didn't have handguns with 15+ mag capacity or 30 rounds or Glocks with 100 round double drums. they are all effectively SBRs. The whole SB thing was about concealed weapons, and now there are 100s of guns with as much or more power than any SBR you could make. Once you let Tec 9s be legal I see no reason to sweat a SBR law at all. same for SBS really. neither has proven to be terribly useful at making us safer. I'm fine with the machine gun stipulations, but the SB laws aren't doing us much good.

[CitizenBBN]

I should add this is what happens when politicians who know nothing about guns write laws. Feinstein and the assault weapons fixation she has highlights it even better. She wants to ban stuff like barrel shrouds. huh? Shrouds look bad-ass but they don't in any way effect the usability or potential firepower or threat of the firearm in any way someone would use it in a crime. it's totally based on the look. Why even care about that? Just nonsense.

Same as the Handy Gun. take a Handy Gun and rifle the barrel and it's a legal pistol and you can still shoot 410 through it, leave it smooth and it's an illegal SBS. Huh?

[DanISSELisdaman]

I am all for her banning shrouds and leaving our guns alone. That way everybody would get something. ;)

[CitizenBBN]

I am all for her banning shrouds and leaving our guns alone. That way everybody would get something. ;)

Hey if that's all we had to do I'm with you. Ban shrouds and muzzle breaks and make a law that rifles cannot be solid black but must have at least 10% bright and cheerful colors but 1,000 round belt fed is legal and call it done. :)

Some of these nuts want to ban "assault weapons" including rim fire, which means any 22 rifles with detachable magazines would be banned in Cali. that didn't pass but it was pushed pretty hard. ban the Ruger 10/22 as an "assault weapon"? Really? Assaulting tin cans maybe.

[Darrell KSR]

Don't ban my Judge before I get one, please.

Sent using Forum Runner

[CitizenBBN]

Don't ban my Judge before I get one, please.

Sent using Forum Runner

Dont' worry, we're going to have plasma rifles before you get one. :tongue08: :evilgrin0007: :fam24:

They already are banned in California. Not sure about the last "running around hair on fire" bans from NY, MD, and Conn.

[Darrell KSR]

Dont' worry, we're going to have plasma rifles before you get one. :tongue08: :evilgrin0007: :fam24:

They already are banned in California. Not sure about the last "running around hair on fire" bans from NY, MD, and Conn.

I know, I know. Actually looking at an inexpensive 9mm, small, lightweight, from Florida that I might get before the Judge. Think it is spelled Sccy cpx2 or something like that. Either that or a Ruger .380. I really think I like the Sccy, though. Like the small size, and the 10+1.

That may be the next purchase after all this time of thinking the Judge might be the only other one I get. Go figure.

Sent using Forum Runner

[CitizenBBN]

The SCCYs seem to draw a range of views. some seem to really like them, some don't. Part of that is snob appeal, some gun guys never trust a gun under $400. Hickock45 gave a mixed review, his was ammo finicky but thought it was an OK gun. I didn't like how his failed to lock into battery but he thought it was maybe ammo. It's basically a Kel Tec design ostensibly with better finish. Pronounced "Sky" fwiw, was originally spelled like the vodka.

Have you test fired it? Has a really long trigger draw. I might steer you to 2-3 others at least to try but it's not one I'd steer you away from either. With guns in that price range IMO you do have to fire them a number of times to make sure it's working good for you. Quality can vary with any gun but with these kind I like to test them individually some. I have Kel tecs and did that too, they can be a little unfinished in places.

[suncat05]

Why not just go with a Gen. 4 Glock, or a Taurus? Good quality handguns and not pricey. I mean, they're not an H&K or a Sig Sauer, but for what you'd want it for, more than adequate. JMHO.

[Darrell KSR]

Why not just go with a Gen. 4 Glock, or a Taurus? Good quality handguns and not pricey. I mean, they're not an H&K or a Sig Sauer, but for what you'd want it for, more than adequate. JMHO.

Even the Glock 26 is bigger, heavier, and wider than the Sccy, which was the initial motivation for looking at it. Haven't looked at the Taurus. Of course, the Sccy is also half the price of the Glock. This isn't replacing my Glock 36, just a natural supplement to it.

I have also tried the subcompact Glocks for feel in my hand, and the only one that is narrow enough with the grip is the G36. I have pretty particular requirements, especially with the shape of the gun and my hand.

CBBN, I'm way early in the process. I have read five reviews and seen two videos, with one about 30 minutes long devoted to the review of that model. I'm not sure about the long trigger pull at all, or the 9 pound pull. I do like no external safety a lot, and the 15 oz. weight.

The reviews, including the long video one shooting it a great deal, were pretty consistent that it was ammo specific. I think I'm fine with that for what I want.

There are some other .380s I'm thinking about right now for the same backup role I'm looking at this one for, but I like the idea of 9mm for this. Still way early, though.

Sent using Forum Runner

[Darrell KSR]

Whoa--I'm just reading about the new Glock 42, .380. Wish I had not seen that. 12 ounces? Now we're talking.

I still like the 9mm, 15 oz variety, but there's another in the game now. First review I read on the G42 was extremely high on it after 500 rounds, but I don't know that I want to drop below 9mm for this backup weapon.

Suncat, I took a look at the Taurus PT111 G2, and liked the looks of it, read one review which was glowing, but did not like the external safety. I just don't want to think about something when I'm stressed. Call that the amateur in me, and I'm ok with that, but I don't want it. I do like the polymer frames.

[suncat05]

Yes, Taurus makes a much better quality handgun than most realize. I have no heartburn with most of what they make. And you're not wrong about the safety. Simple is better. It has to be simple to operate, fit well in your hand, and function when you pull the trigger.
My sergeant just bought one of those Glock 42's. He gets it next week. He has raved about how compact it is. I am looking forward to actually putting hands on it so I can evaluate it for myself.
I have never been a big Glock fan, but the Gen 4's are a much better version than the first three iterations, and I may even consider buying one myself.

[Darrell KSR]

Here is a nice thread on the defensive carry concealed weapon message board community i skim from time to time. I'm definitely going to look at the Sccy at some point.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178084

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

[CitizenBBN]

The Taurus line is one of the ones I was going to bring up. I like their stuff pretty well. I don't like external safeties for these style of weapon either. I'm surprised they put one on the CPX 1 b/c in that size usually there isn't one on a DAO gun.

If you get up this way I think I have a CPx-1 you can try D. It has the safety, you'd want the 2, but they're the same basic size and feel afaik. You can get some idea by trying the Kel Tec P-11, which IMO is the gun the CPX is based on. Same rough size and feel, same long trigger pull, 10+1 double stack. Given the two I see mixed reviews on which is better, but I believe SCCY basically tweaked a P11. Takedown is identical as well.

Another one to look at in this category is a Beretta Nano. It's single stack though.

Then you can go old school with something like a Makarov. Can get the capacity in a slightly less powerful round than the 9mm but more powerful than the 380 but with usually excellent reliability.

Ah, gun talk....

[Darrell KSR]

I'm just tinkering around. Saw the gun at Bud's online. Reviews are great for the Sccy there, except for the 2011 one which was likely the 1st generation. I've never seen such a dichotomy--the first generation is almost unanimously panned as the worst piece of crap to fall on the planet, and the second generation receiving rave reviews from the pundits for its high quality workmanship, great materials, and substantiveness.

I have a large carry (in my definition), the Glock 36, and want to continue that. I have a S&W revolver (640?), .38 special, that is "a" backup to that. I'm just contemplating a different backup, and the 9mm really caught my attention for its size, with the 10+1. I may be ok with the longer trigger travel, given no external safety, too. Sort of a safeguard in itself against an accidental fire. But I need to shoot it. And as much as I like the idea of that small Glock 42 in the .380, I'm just finding it hard to convince myself to get a .380 over a 9mm, given the choice.

Fun talking about it, though. You know me--three years from now, I'll still be doing it.

[suncat05]

I am not a big .380 guy, but with the quality of .380 munitions these days there isn't much difference in ballistics results anymore between the. 380 and 9mm. I intend to look this G42 over pretty close.

[Darrell KSR]

I am not a big .380 guy, but with the quality of .380 munitions these days there isn't much difference in ballistics results anymore between the. 380 and 9mm. I intend to look this G42 over pretty close.

If you get your hands on it, please be sure and share!

[suncat05]

If you get your hands on it, please be sure and share!

Absolutely.

[CitizenBBN]

The benefit of 380 over 9mm is that as small as the CPX-2 and P-11 are, they are still big compared to the P3-AT or LCP series guns. I still can't carry the P-11 size guns in my jeans pockets, but I can carry the P3AT no problem. Just a matter of how big a constraint size is. 380 is still enough to stop someone but you can fit one about anywhere, thus the popularity.

Personally I wouldn't go below 380 for a self defense caliber, but not everyone can shoot bigger calibers in such small guns. They do get hard to control.

The Makarovs aren't a bad compromise b/c they are right in between 9mm and 380 ACP. The 9mm is 9x19, the 380 is in fact 9x17mm, the Makarov is 9x18mm. They're also cheap and reliable and simple. That's why there is a good market for them, they're carry size but a bit more power than the 380. Though the 380 loads as suncat said have made it a better round. I carry a 357 or 38+P most of the time, but I carry the 380 sometimes when the S&W isnt' a good option. Shooting 357 out of a j-frame is a hoot, you know the gun is going off for sure.

If it's just about getting smaller than the G36 the Springfield XDs is smaller and still in 45. that thing is freaky thin to be a 45. If I go away from 357 it would be to the SDs in 45 probably.

[Darrell KSR]

I need to go to a gun show. Or to CitizenBBN's shop. A big, big part of it to me is feel.

I like the idea of the .380 being small enough to put into a back pocket if needed. That captures my attention more than just having a 9mm. I'll have to consider that very carefully, especially given the great advice from both Suncat and CitizenBBN.

I do like 9mm, though. Other than my .22, I have shot 9mm longer and owned it longer than any other weapon, and it just has a nice feel to it. Plus I like the ammo cost on it, too.

Everything is always a tradeoff. The good news is, if I do decide to go with a Sccy CPX-2, it's cheap enough you don't feel like it's "necessarily" an "either-or" gun. Saw some $225 price tags for it on that link in the other thread (thanks to dethbylt for the good info, too!).

[CitizenBBN]

Pick a game and come up. We'll go over to the range and shoot some of them. Suncat that goes for you too, bring me a can of warm Florida air and we've got a date. :)

[suncat05]

Pick a game and come up. We'll go over to the range and shoot some of them. Suncat that goes for you too, bring me a can of warm Florida air and we've got a date. :)

If I ever get up that way again, you're on!

[Darrell KSR]

CBBN, I'll take a look and see. Would love to do that.

To give you an idea of the size of my hand, the glock 36 -- without the Pearce extension -- fits perfectly with all four fingers on the grip. My pinkie finger does not curl under like many people have to do. So I love the size of that weapon. Of course, for a backup weapon, smaller pocket pistol (I'm not opposed to pocket carrying the G36, although it gives some people angst), I'd like something smaller.

It's very likely the Sccy just isn't significantly enough smaller. If I owned 40 pistols, maybe it would be, but something like that Glock 42 may be more in line.

I had to chuckle when I saw the picture on this site--claimed that the Sccy could "fit" in a back pocket. Look at the picture and see how much of it is sticking out. Well, doh. Put any pistol in there and it will "fit" in a way lol.

https://tacticalgunreview.com/blog/2012/11/staff-review-sccy-cpx-2-compact-9mm-pistol/

[CitizenBBN]

That's a funny pic. In any state without open carry you get arrested for that kind of "concealed carry".

I carry the Kel Tec PF9 b/c it's a little thinner than the KT P11 and that's the gun the CPX is based on. You can't pocket carry it, at least I can't, I carry it in an ankle holster or IWB. The Maks are all about that same size.

For pocket carry I know some carry a j-frame S&W but it doesn't work for me. I carry my 60 IWB, but you can carry the 380s in the pocket no problem. Even a tighter jeans pocket.

I want to try the XDs and see if I like it over the 357 but haven't gotten my hands on one. I just need to order it and see what I think. Now if I could just figure out how to cc a SKS I'd be in business. You know for those zombie hordes.

[Darrell KSR]

That Kel Tec PF9 would be a good choice. Just window browsing dimensions and such--

Glock 36 (.45 ACP) - 22.4 oz, 7" length, 4.8" height, 1.13" width. That's as large a pistol as I want.

Glock 42 (.380) - 13.8 oz (w/ unloaded mag), 5.94" length, 4.13" height, 0.94" width. Certainly smaller than the 36--but surprisingly, a little larger than the Sccy and the PF9.

Sccy cpx2 (9mm) - 15 oz, 5.7" length, 4" height, 1" width. An ounce heavier, but shorter length and height, and about same width. And that's with a double-stack mag (10+1 9mm).

Kel Tec PF9 (9mm) - 12.7 oz, 5.85" length, 4.3" height, 0.88" width. Couple of ounces lighter, but taller and longer. Single stack, but 7+1.

There are a lot of choices out there.

[CitizenBBN]

Interesting. If you go to 380 (using the Glock 42 for comparison)

Ruger LCP

Barrel Length:

2.75"
Length:
5.16"


Width:
0.82"
Height:
3.60"


Weight:
9.40 oz.
Sights:
Fixed


Capacity:
6+1




That's 3 oz lighter than the 42 and smaller, esp. that width.

Kel Tec P3AT


Weight

8.3 oz.



Frame Width

0.798"



Barrel Length

2.675"


Slide Width

0.748"


Overall Length
5.14"



Height

3.576"


Cartridge Capacity

6+1




For the G42 to only be 6+1 it's big compared to the market leaders for 380s. The Kel Tec is the lightest out there at 8oz, also a little smaller than the LCP. If it's strictly about deep carry of a small gun the 42 is a little big. Some folks only want a gun so small, the really small ones are hard for them to control, so there's a market for bigger 380s (I sell a LOT of them and the it's not like the Walther PPK isn't popular), but I don't see them beating out Ruger and Kel Tec as leaders for the pocket guns and deep carry.

Have you seen the carry bra btw? You snap the gun to the joint in the bra between the "cleavage". Depends on how you are endowed I guess whether you carry a LCP or a Desert Eagle 50 cal. lol.

[Darrell KSR]

Interesting--I was at another attorney's office early this week. He has a young man who is his law clerk/secretary/runner/do-it-all who is a law school student at a night law school here. He told me he "carried" while he went to and from class, just because there is one area that is dark, hidden, and perfect for attack. He showed me his Ruger LCP, which he pulled out of an inside coat pocket, so I've at least seen that one. The size looked great for that purpose.

And no, I haven't seen the carry bra. At least I won't admit to it on a public forum ;).

[CitizenBBN]

Can't beat that size for "deep concealment", esp to still be in a fairly powerful caliber. The Kel Tec 32, which was one of the first to really grow this market, is even smaller, but the gain isn't worth the loss in caliber IMO.

It's a "gut gun" in that you won't shoot 1" groups at 25 yards with it, but it's not often the mugger waves at you from across the street and announces he's going to come mug you. It's for up close self defense, and it's plenty accurate for that task.

The holster is the "flashbang" which is brilliantly named.

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/flashbang71.jpg

It works too:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8r6CY5UZyw

Guns and girls. If we can work beer into this thread we have a complete guy discussion. :)

[suncat05]

Well, we already have pics/video, so all that's really missing is the brewski's...............

[Darrell KSR]

Can't beat that size for "deep concealment", esp to still be in a fairly powerful caliber. The Kel Tec 32, which was one of the first to really grow this market, is even smaller, but the gain isn't worth the loss in caliber IMO.

It's a "gut gun" in that you won't shoot 1" groups at 25 yards with it, but it's not often the mugger waves at you from across the street and announces he's going to come mug you. It's for up close self defense, and it's plenty accurate for that task.

The holster is the "flashbang" which is brilliantly named.

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/flashbang71.jpg

It works too:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8r6CY5UZyw

Guns and girls. If we can work beer into this thread we have a complete guy discussion. :)

Pretty cool.

Purely academic, of course, but I noticed that her right breast was lower than her left breast. Was that as a result of the weight of the gun? I thought it was a pretty significant disparity.

She made me nervous shooting from her gut like that, and doggone it if she didn't bungle it up once, too. I get that a gut shot might be what is indicated (some thug on top of her, etc.) but it did make me nervous.

The concept is terrific.

[CitizenBBN]

Darrell draw technique is one thing I'd REALLY emphasize with this kind of setup. In my carry class I show a youtube video of a guy practicing his draw who violates RULE 1 and has his finger on the trigger when he draws. It goes off and he shoots himself in the leg. Now he was shooting a much touchier gun than a LCP/P3AT which both have decently long DAO draws, but the risk with a bra/shirt holster is if you do have a negligent discharge you could shoot yourself somewhere a lot more vital than your leg.

It would be difficult, you'd have to have an awkward angle to point it back to yourself, but you'd want goo draw technique.

As a big positive for it the access is good and can be pretty unencumbered which makes for a safer draw versus trying to get your shirt untucked from your tucked IWB holster for example. It's also a comfortable reach for your arm.

The weight of it should be right in the middle of the bra even if the gun isn't balanced, so I imagine she had that going on before she started carrying. :) Though if you were to carry a j-frame or such I would think it may make you appear a bit lopsided if most of the cylinder was up under one side of the bra.

here's another video with more women using it and showing how it is concealed. they seem "in balance". I DO have an issue with this video though, and it's that he's timing these women with the obvious push to be draw and fire speed. that's not responsible to do with untrained people, pushing them to pull the trigger quickly with fast draw. He said in the other one she had no holster experience. You want people to work at their own pace and practice a LOT unloaded before you ever start timing your draw with a live firearm.

The video is instructive in how it works/looks, but he needed to not insert actual timing and "GO" type scenarios, not with untrained people.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Nhr8kG6PEOc

[Darrell KSR]

I'm glad an instructor (you) is saying that about pushing them to fire against the clock like this. Sure, some of you guys that are very experienced can do that, but why not let these people learn a smooth, safe draw--which is still going to be quick--but don't show the clock, as if that's the ultimate goal.

Great point about where it is pointed, though. Gotta be safer with that setup than many others.

When I was looking at my holster/carry options, someone showed me one you wore by your lower abdomen. Seriously?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCLzYOlgGVw

[CitizenBBN]

It's grossly irresponsible. This is some "gun guy" who is selling holsters, not a qualified instructor or even someone I'd want to shoot with. Timed draw is the last step in learning to draw and fire a weapon, not the first.

I've seen that one, show a picture of it in my class in fact. I show a variety of "deep concealment" options. Some people swear that is comfortable, I think they're crazy, at least for men.

When I do the class I actually wear several (unloaded-unmagazined) guns in various conceal holsters to demonstrate them and how carry looks and works. I do have a deep conceal one I want where the entire gun sits below the belt like that one, but it's a cross draw with a phone case and you pull it up to draw. I can see it having concealment advantages but it's a two handed draw though.

I wear one IWB and tucked, an ankle, a pocket, and a belly band usually, and I have a fanny pack just to show them how one looks. Id like to add the below the belt line maybe.

I actually have two different designs for carry holsters I have yet to see anywhere floating in my head. i'm going to try to stitch one together and see if it works like I think. If so I may go into the holster business. lol. now I just need a free weekend and some sewing skills. If it was soldering I'd be set.

[suncat05]

I carry three different ways: 1)right hand belt, 2)cross draw from left side with right hand, 3)right hand front pocket. Those are the only three ways I ever carry. Anything else is a waste of my time. And I do practice each type of draw.
I can see and understand where the bra carry may come in handy for a female undercover. That should not be a primary mode of carry, though. JMHO. Keeping it very basic and simple is the best idea for carrying a concealed handgun. After all, if you need it right now, the simpler it is to get to and utilize, the better it is for you.

[Darrell KSR]

Keeping it very basic and simple is the best idea for carrying a concealed handgun. After all, if you need it right now, the simpler it is to get to and utilize, the better it is for you.

I love hearing you experts tell me I need to keep it simple. Doesn't make me feel like such an idiot for not wanting anything to complicate my life (or defense of it, as it were.)

[suncat05]

This is a good place to reinforce the K.I.S.S. principle...........Keep It Simple, Silly.........actually, another word ends that phrase, but you are NOT even in that category..........and I chose that last word because it fits the phrase, and no one here at all.
Ultimately, the simpler you keep it, the better it is for you and your peace of mind. And your personal safety.

[CitizenBBN]

You've talked me into it. Going to carry the SKS full time. :)

in the class I love demoing the various holsters out there but "Access" is item #1 when we start the discussion.