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imsoblue
09-20-2012, 10:07 AM
For Prayer!

The Tennessee Volunteers have now gone just too far. We get it…. college football is laden with tradition. It seems like nearly every game in the fall is for some sort of traditional trophy, be it a bucket, an ax, or who knows what else. And it isn’t just the Vols…. this is homecoming week for thousands of schools across America, and you’ll find thousands of traditions, rituals, and annual events nearly everywhere you look.

And lord knows (no pun intended… you’ll get it in a bit) that players are huge on pregame ritual. Some eat something in particular, some don their uniform a certain way…. hell, some even throw up.

But this is too much. The University is under attack, because, they take a moment, before each home game…. to pray.

You heard me right… 100,000 people stop screaming for a moment… to pray. Can you imagine it? The nerve of these people!

And such is the state of our world. Have we truly fallen so far? I get it. Separation of church and state and all. And on that, I agree. But for people to object to this is lunacy. So not everyone is a christian. Most people believe in God in some form or another. And for those at the game who don’t…. hell, go get a beer. Take a whiz. It isn’t as if they’re launching the crusades here. Although you’d think they were, based on a statement from The Freedom From Religion Foundation…. yes, you read that correctly…

“This is a public university, not a Christian club. It’s open to all comers and should be welcoming,” said Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the foundation and author of the letter sent to Chancellor Jimmy Cheek, according to the News Sentinel. “When you’re not religious or are of another faith and you get prayed at during events, it’s really very grating. It’s a sock in the gut for you to go for a sporting event and then be told to conform to someone else’s religion.”

We’ve got genocides occuring in our world daily. While you read this, 3 kids died of starvation. Our own kids are still overseas dying. And these idiots are taking the time to raise a stink about this. I’m all for freedom of speech… I served my country to ensure that morons like this have the right to say what they do. But I also reserve the right to point out the fact that they are just that… morons.

Maybe if more people took the time to do what they do in Tennessee… take a moment to share something like this…. maybe the world wouldn’t be the disaster it is today. Just a thought.



http://socyberty.com/issues/tennessee-under-fire/#ixzz271SeQ4ff

Catfan73
09-20-2012, 10:15 AM
Have to call it a moment of silence, not prayer.

imsoblue
09-20-2012, 10:19 AM
Why not call it what it is a prayer? Must we always kowtow to every loon who has a complaint. I believe this is a democracy and the majority of the Tenn fans want to call it a prayer. I'm with the writer go get a beer or bend your head and pray to your god Obama.

Catfan73
09-20-2012, 10:43 AM
? What does this have to do with Obama?

I couldn't tell from the link, but I assumed that UT was calling their moment of silence "prayer" and you just can't do that. Democracy is a majority-rule sort of governance and society, but not if the decision of the majority tramples the rights of the minority. That would be un-American to the core.

imsoblue
09-20-2012, 10:59 AM
These people should call it what ever they want. And remember the dem's removed God from their platform. They took a democratic although rigged voice vote to put it back in. Majority of them voted down God in the voice vote. Thats some nice legal mumbo jumbo though in your reply.

SalsaKat
09-20-2012, 11:26 AM
? What does this have to do with Obama?

I couldn't tell from the link, but I assumed that UT was calling their moment of silence "prayer" and you just can't do that. Democracy is a majority-rule sort of governance and society, but not if the decision of the majority tramples the rights of the minority. That would be un-American to the core.

Having been to Knoxville, it's not a moment of silence, it's a prayer. Recited over the PA.

I can see someone being uncomfortable with that, but personally I'd be a lot more concerned about the dark, dank, dungeon-y ("c'mere-and-squeal-like-a-pig"-y) concourses at that place. Being surrounded by that many Tennessee fans in a dark narrow passageway would only be scarier if I were a sheep.

Catfan73
09-20-2012, 01:17 PM
I've never had much of a desire to drive four hours and subject myself to that level of abuse, although I can't imagine it being much more abusive that going to the pink pizza palace every other year. :(

If this is standard procedure in Knoxville, I'm surprised no one complained before now. It certainly doesn't pass the Lemon test. Those wacky Supremes though. What do they know?

Lfbj00
09-20-2012, 04:00 PM
? What does this have to do with Obama?

I couldn't tell from the link, but I assumed that UT was calling their moment of silence "prayer" and you just can't do that. Democracy is a majority-rule sort of governance and society, but not if the decision of the majority tramples the rights of the minority. That would be un-American to the core.

I could not disagree more!! I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. That about sums it up!!

dan_bgblue
09-20-2012, 04:17 PM
? What does this have to do with Obama?

I couldn't tell from the link, but I assumed that UT was calling their moment of silence "prayer" and you just can't do that. Democracy is a majority-rule sort of governance and society, but not if the decision of the majority tramples the rights of the minority. That would be un-American to the core.

How about when the decision of the minority tramples the rights of the majority? Is that still un-American to the core?

truecatsfan
09-20-2012, 07:54 PM
I could not disagree more!! I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. That about sums it up!!

Amen. Nascar does this before every race. And its called prayer.

Catfan73
09-20-2012, 08:14 PM
Nascar isn't a publically-funded endeavor though.

CitizenBBN
09-20-2012, 08:26 PM
First off, guys let's all watch the tone a bit. We let things go more this time of year b/c of the election, but remember we're all on the same side as UK fans.

second, I'm unaware of any requirement to be at a Football game. it's not required for classes, and they don't seem to be complaining that those who work there are being subjected to the prayer. So it's a prayer at an event that is completely voluntary to attend.

Well, if you don't like it you don't have to be there, and I'm unaware of any right to watch a football game in person. Fwiw I actually find big group prayer things uncomfortable b/c I'm pretty private about my faith and there's always some drunk idiot talking during it and annoying me but I don't expect them to stop it b/c I don't care for them.

I like this part particularly:

When you’re not religious or are of another faith and you get prayed at during events, it’s really very grating. It’s a sock in the gut for you to go for a sporting event and then be told to conform to someone else’s religion.”

So many interesting things here to be from an official statement from a group.

-- You aren't being prayed "at". They're praying to someone else, you're just having to be in amongst it.

-- "a sock in the gut" is an interesting expression, esp. re sporting events. If you get beaten by 50 is that also a sock in the gut, and if so do we put in a mercy rule for college football?

-- "told to conform to" again while I won't deny there is a peer pressure of some kind to at least be quiet while such a prayer is occurring, it's a long way from being told by someone to do something. Unless the ushers are saying "hey you in seat 37, I don't see you praying" you aren't being told.

Maybe made uncomfortable OK, but I see no amendment to the Constitution nor nothing written in the Federalist Papers nor by Thomas Paine or others that there is any right to avoid being uncomfortable.

Specifically: Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were Deists, and a number of faiths were represented in the Continental Congress and throughout the Constitutional Convention, and they opened every day with a prayer. The people who wrote separation of church and state into the Constitution itself opened their government meetings with a prayer and continued to do so once there was a formal Congress from the very first day.

Further, SCOTUS ruled in 83 that the Congressional opening prayer was not "establishment of a religion". that's important b/c the constitution doesn't say "separation of church and state", it says the state "shall not establish" a religion.

"Religion" as a word appears ONCE in the Constitution, in the 1st Amendment, and it says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".

Is a prayer to open a football game now "establishing a religion"? Nonsense. At the time prayer was a common thing in proceedings throughout the colonies and it was clearly not the Founder's intent to abolish public prayer, even in government events, simply to not require or fund a religion through government means.

Again, I don't care for them. I would be just fine if they went away. I find them uncomfortable. But I don't have the hubris to think a few hundred out of the 100,000 at the game should prevent the others from doing what they're doing.

Like imsoblue suggested, I'll just be quiet, or go to the concessions. It's not like they required me to even say anything, just be present when they do.

I'm not particularly religious, and I have had a long list of bad experiences with organized religion that has led me to be private about mine, but political correctness has gone too far in thinking that exposure to something someone doesn't like is infringing on them. Making you do something is infringing, making you have to tolerate others doing it is not. I don't like to see any form of expression singled out, be it exercise of religion or exercise of sexual preference. To me they are no different: they are your business and not mine and unless you make me pray or make me hold hands with Frank I have no say in what you do.

CitizenBBN
09-20-2012, 08:32 PM
Nascar isn't a publically-funded endeavor though.

Neither is Tennessee football. Its' like UK, set up as a separate non-governmental corporation. it's how universities get around various tax issues and hiring practices. A very thin distinction I'll admit, and I'm not defending it, but to avoid these kinds of things is why they've done it.

UK has an even better one. Alcohol is illegal on state property, so they can't have it at games even if SEC rules allowed it (which they don't), but if you have a football suite they'll let you bring it in the day before the game (not game day) and somehow through the lease they argue it's not on "state property". of course the parking lot is state property too but they somehow manage to never enforce that liquor restriction. lol.

Again, not defending these shallow distinctions, clearly they're all contrivances, but I'm betting UT can use that to do it.

jazyd
09-20-2012, 09:04 PM
I think Dan hit the nail lpretty square.

And Citizen I was about to argue with you when you started on the separation of church and state until you got to the actual part where it does not say that, it says what you wrote, the government shall not have its own religion.

Those that are aetheists fine, don't pray, just sit and be quiet while the rest of us enjoy our moment of prayer. No one is forcing anyone to pray along with what is being said,a and what is so wrong at a football game asking that every player be free from injury and that our country remains free...which of course this particular group doesn't want to happen...and our military are protected from any evil. WOW, that is really some things to be worried about.
And if all those ultra liberal PC groups continue to get their way now, they really are going to be pissed when they are forced to pray to Allah and that Muhommend guy and find out there is no 72 virgins in whatever place they end up.
I dont' like being around a bunch of drunks at a sport event, but I go anyway and try to either avoid them or keep my mouth shut.

And a prayer at any school or government event is not like it is a prayer just for Catholics, or Baptists or Methodist or whatever denomination you may or may not belong to. It is a prayer for everyone.

I realize liberals and democrats are trying their best to do away with God, and it showed in their platform and their voice vote.

Maybe what all Christians should do is stop paying the amount of their taxes that goes to public schools and take all their kids out of public schools and apply that money to going to private school or home school. If there isn't attendance in the public school they lose federal funding for each student not there. Which right now home schooling is growing by leaps and bounds, good, it hurts the federal money that goes to each school district.

its time that the majority start telling the minority where they can shove it, high deep and wide.

And nice job of explaining everything Citizen

Catfan73
09-20-2012, 10:15 PM
Citizen, I have a hard time envisioning anyone successfully arguing that a University of Tennessee football game isn't a (public) school-sponsored activity. Without the school, there would be no UT football game.

In 1992, the Supreme Court ruled in Lee v. Weisman that school organized prayer, even if voluntary and nonsectarian, violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The Court decided the school involved supervised or controlled the activity, a prayer at a graduation ceremony. In the opinion of the Court, the "psychological coercion" placed on dissenters to attend the graduation ceremonies had the effect of government coercion of students to attend religious exercises. In the twenty years since that ruling, the courts have clarified that if the prayer is truly a student's expression, it may be constitutional, as long as the school policy doesn't invite or encourage a religious message.

There is a football game precedent also, albeit a high school football game. In Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe in 2000, the Supreme Court ruled that an invocation over the p.a. system at a football game by an elected student council chaplin under the supervision of school faculty violated the Establishment Clause. Although noting that attendance at a football game is voluntary, the court ruled that the social pressure or personal desire to attend does not dramatically differ from that of the graduation exercises. They also noted that the election process itself ensured that minority view candidates would never prevail and that their views would be effectively silenced.

SalsaKat
09-20-2012, 10:27 PM
I realize it's certainly a false equivalence, but how would you feel if it were a Muslim prayer or Hindu mantra? Be honest. I'm not ashamed to say I'd be a touch uncomfortable with a deity I don't believe in being called upon on my behalf.

UT *Athletics* can do as it wishes (though the ties to a publicly funded university make this very gray) but I do think it'd be more respectful to all to drop the matter entirely. Or at least pray that everyone retains their sight after having to stare at that vomit yellow for three hours.

CitizenBBN
09-20-2012, 10:37 PM
They may be able to argue it's a school function, but that is the legal distinction they already use to avoid a host of other laws from anti-nepotism to unearned business income taxation of the school itself.

Like I said, I'm not defending it. We all know it's a contrivance of law, but sometimes contrivances of law are very effective. Could it withstand a process going all the way to SCOTUS? I'm dubious as well, but I'm betting they would have among their first arguments that they aren't a government body. They'd probably argue in on a couple of levels.

First they'd argue a high school situation isn't applicable b/c attendance at a public high school isn't optional. You have to go to school in your district or to an accredited private school. Attendance at a university, even public, isn't required. this one would lose, but they'd make the argument.

I think they'd argue that in particular regarding the players and such re parents having the pressure to attend. Again, a loser, but I think it would be there.

FWIW I disagree with their interpretation of the Establishment clause, and I'm not particularly religious. I am however a big supporter of the concept of Federalism and a huge believer in following the intent and will of the Founders, and they clearly saw these things as not being an establishment of a religion. the men who wrote the 1st Amendment regularly participated in and promulgated this kind of prayer activity at gatherings, even of government entities.

However I know that's not really the point, what I think but what SCOTUS thinks. In the end I think UT's argument would be the games aren't governmental in nature. The University is publicly funded but not a government body, no one is required to attend it, and the games themselves are organized by a separate non-governmental entity wholly owned by the university that has already been deemed to be a separate body by the IRS and numerous other agencies at the state and federal level.

They do it to get around the tax issue, but it's also how they let the head coach hire his son to get around anti-nepotism laws a state may have and that sort of thing. UK follows a lot of those procedures to avoid issues, but ignores them some too. So for example they won't allow nepotism among the admin staff (like Ivy having his son work there or Martin Newton working there when CM was AD) but overlook it on coaching staffs, yet they go through the formalities of posting the job notices for the staff as per state requirements. It's a mixed bag.

They know in a dog fight they'd lose on some of these issues, so they tread lightly. Like you I'm surprised UT does it, but I have no issue with it. It makes me uncomfortable at times, but so does us getting beat by 50 and having drunk jerks (and even worse rival drunk jerks) in the seats next to me. A minor part of my overall experience to have a prayer to kick it off, and if it's that minor than how can they be establishing anything with me?

FWIW I think UK would lose their alcohol in football suites battle as well, they just hope it doesn't come to that so they keep it low profile and away from game day.

CitizenBBN
09-20-2012, 10:43 PM
I realize it's certainly a false equivalence, but how would you feel if it were a Muslim prayer or Hindu mantra? Be honest. I'm not ashamed to say I'd be a touch uncomfortable with a deity I don't believe in being called upon on my behalf.

UT *Athletics* can do as it wishes (though the ties to a publicly funded university make this very gray) but I do think it'd be more respectful to all to drop the matter entirely. Or at least pray that everyone retains their sight after having to stare at that vomit yellow for three hours.

I think it's a very fair question.

My first answer is that I don't think I have a right to lack of discomfort. Lots of things make me uncomfortable, including many duly passed laws of the land. I don't have any obligation to embrace that which makes me uncomfortable but neither do I have standing to insist someone stop uncomfortable behavior to spare me.

This is somewhat different I know, but still such a minor inconvenience that it doesn't for me overcome the simple cultural norm of public functions reflecting the sensibilities of the local populace, even governmental ones.

Having not been there do they do a specific prayer over the PA system? I find it gutsy in the current climate, but I'd much rather focus on the 10,000 government actions that do actually impact by behavior by force rather than the one potential overreaching that doesn't require me to do anything at all re my behavior.

Catfan73
09-20-2012, 10:59 PM
This is a good discussion; one you can have with your neighbors without getting into politics too much. ;)

FWIW, prayer at sporting events has never bothered me personally, but if it bothers someone else I don't think we should be doing it. Prayer belongs in the home and at one's place of worship.

jazyd
09-20-2012, 11:55 PM
I wouldntt like it nor would I listen to it, but if it was a function that the majority wanted done, I wouldn't stand in the way. However, I would excuse myself and go to the john, go outside, whatever.
But then again, at this point I wouldn't be at a function that would be honoring a muslim, but in the near future we may all be at those functions or dead.



I realize it's certainly a false equivalence, but how would you feel if it were a Muslim prayer or Hindu mantra? Be honest. I'm not ashamed to say I'd be a touch uncomfortable with a deity I don't believe in being called upon on my behalf.

UT *Athletics* can do as it wishes (though the ties to a publicly funded university make this very gray) but I do think it'd be more respectful to all to drop the matter entirely. Or at least pray that everyone retains their sight after having to stare at that vomit yellow for three hours.

jazyd
09-20-2012, 11:57 PM
ok fine, it bothers me to have people smoking around me, so it should be outlawed at at government function.
it bothers me to be around drunks or anyone drinking too much, so we need to outlaw all alcohol at any government function.
it bothers me to hear people using Gods Name as a cuss word, so anyone who does that at any government function should be tossed.
Shall I go on.



This is a good discussion; one you can have with your neighbors without getting into politics too much. ;)

FWIW, prayer at sporting events has never bothered me personally, but if it bothers someone else I don't think we should be doing it. Prayer belongs in the home and at one's place of worship.

CitizenBBN
09-21-2012, 12:14 AM
This is a good discussion; one you can have with your neighbors without getting into politics too much. ;)

.

lol. I kinda needed a chuckle. thanks. :)

The good thing about politics, by the time the election is over everyone is so beat up they don't care as much who won just as long as it's over. lol.

We started the Barber Shop 2 election cycles ago just to get the election stuff off the Front Porch. For many years we just didn't allow political discussion but there were some good non-political policy discussions that invariably got locked as they veered to politics. We left this open to put that here and basically tolerate pure politics during the election but otherwise steer to policy discussion as much as possible, knowing there's some overlap.

So a couple more months, then a few weeks of cooling off, then back to solving the problems of the world. :)

SalsaKat
09-21-2012, 07:22 AM
We left this open to put that here and basically tolerate pure politics

Oh well in that case...

DAYUM LIBERASERVATIVES AND THEIR HAVING OPINIONS THAT MAY NOT REFLECT MINE!!!!

truecatsfan
09-21-2012, 05:24 PM
ok fine, it bothers me to have people smoking around me, so it should be outlawed at at government function.
it bothers me to be around drunks or anyone drinking too much, so we need to outlaw all alcohol at any government function.
it bothers me to hear people using Gods Name as a cuss word, so anyone who does that at any government function should be tossed.
Shall I go on.

Jazyd, you beat me to it. Last sat. at our home game somebody was smoking a pipe. Several people was asking him not to smoke, well guess what he said. I payed for this seat and i will do what i want. So will this keep me from going next sat. NO. Same as prayer wouldnt.