Another sign things are out of control

[badrose]

SUSPENDED STUDENT MAY BE EXPELLED FOR REST OF THE YEAR FOR PLAYING WITH TOY GUN…IN HIS OWN YARD


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/23/suspended-student-may-be-expelled-for-rest-of-the-year-for-playing-with-toy-gunin-his-own-yard/

[CatinIL]

For crying out loud!! The school has no right to suspend this kid in this case.

[jazyd]

I'd sue their ass and bust their budget. I would lput every board member and superintendent and anyone who had anything to do with this their names in the paper.

This is utterly ridiculous. These dumb ass liberals are truly ruining this country.

[Darrell KSR]

Hope the laws there are better than in Alabama, where generally, all school officials and school boards have immunity for making stupid decisions.

[UKHistory]

the boy was in his yard playing before school. OK no problem. If I am bus driver I might be concerned in this and age seeing a boy shooting another boy--even if he was playing.

Still no problem. But what is the boy with air soft gun going to do with the pisto? He is not in his house. So if he is seen that means the bus is near or at the stop; it means the boy does not have time to put the gun up so it is being left in the yard, on the driveway somewhere.

I am all believing that schools over react to things. People and children lie. And we don't need a toy gun being brought to school. Should the boy suspended for the year? No.

But I think there is more to this story than meets the eye.

[CitizenBBN]

But what is the boy with air soft gun going to do with the pisto? He is not in his house. So if he is seen that means the bus is near or at the stop; it means the boy does not have time to put the gun up so it is being left in the yard, on the driveway somewhere.



That's a pretty big assumption IMO, that you can't get from your front yard to your front door, toss in a toy and run back to catch the bus. The whole case of the school is that the bus stop was basically right there, seems to me he would have had time. It's a cheapo airsoft gun, he could have just tossed it in the yard. Kids leave toys tossed in the yard all the time.

It was a neighbor who called police (he/she needs to be deported too), and there's nothing in the article to indicate when the bus arrived in relation to the incident. The article only sites the children as having pointed the gun, there wasn't anything about it being at the bus stop or on the bus or the bus driver having been involved in any way.

Per the article, the report, which I have not read, says their zero tolerance policy on guns "extends to private property". Oh boy, it most certainly does NOT. If they make that case, I hope every person involved in that viewpoint is immediately deported for life for failing to understand even the most basic aspects of individual liberty. That's so patently offensive I don't know where to start.

Usually i'd agree there must be more to the story, but not this time. Neighbor thought there was going to be a child shooting, 911 relays "child shooting" to police, whole situation spins out of control, school completes the chain with their gross overreaction to a gun shooting plastic bbs about as hard as I can throw one. Some school official with the mentality of that social worker who showed up with police b/c she saw a kid's picture on Facebook with a 22 rifle thinks it's outrageous for any kid to play with any gun, and by Gawd they're going to put an end to it.

[jazyd]

When I read that the school says they have the right to discipline a child regardless of where they are, such as shooting or playing with a toy or real gun it was obviously a good thing I don't live there. By their reckoning they could suspend or kick out of school any child who hunts with his father

[UKHistory]

Citizen,

I think it is outrageous to suspend a kid for doing something on his family's own property.

That is like saying the school dress code applies to kids at home. JUST WRONG. That is horribly poor position to try and defend.

He could have thrown the gun in the grass on the stoop or whatever. Nothing was said, I am just trying to think there had to be more to this.

Otherwise it is such an egregious violation of common sense.

Neighbors calling is a little too much like the Fatherland for me.

[CitizenBBN]

Have seen a bit of an update on this. So far it's absolutely as bad as it appeared.

The yard was 70 yards from the bus stop. The school board claims someone 10 feet from the stop "ran" and was "still hit" by these bbs. For anyone not familiar with these guns, those bbs won't go 30-40 feet in this kind of gun, it's very unlikely for both parts of that to be true. Mabye you could loft them at a 45 degree angle and have the equivalent of rain drops, but I doubt even that would go 100 feet much less 200. The gun they showed doesn't use c02 cartridges, it's VERY low power. I tend to believe they were in their yard, b/c you have no contradictory statements from police or anyone else, who were on the scene. that means the school board or some other student is stretching the truth or they were walking by the property on the way to the stop and the kids shot them with the bbs. If so that's an issue of law, but again not for the school board.

Mostly, their zero tolerance policy says you cannot use a "firearm". The definition of "firearm" is well established at law,I deal with it all the time, and it does NOT include bb guns at any level. If they didn't include airsoft guns then I don't think they have a leg to stand on, any more than the one that suspended a kid for a pop tart that looked like a gun.

The final insult is they can't even appeal the suspension till January, which to me is patently unfair. They are effectively kicked out of school without the ability to appeal. one will be home schooled, one is going to a different school of some kind. that's just not due process for them, esp. when the rules don't specify anything about airsoft guns but just "firearms", which were not involved.

The Va Beach police washed their hands of it, said there was no law being broken anywhere and nothing to investigate, which also lends support to the stuff about others being shot with bbs being a farce. If there was a complaint of that nature they'd have to look at it,if the case is closed no one has filed any complaints.

[jazyd]

The board also says they have jurisdiction regardless of where a kid uses a gun. The parents need to see a lawyer yesterday, this damages the kid on his record. They have no jurisdiction over any child not on school property

[CitizenBBN]

The board also says they have jurisdiction regardless of where a kid uses a gun. The parents need to see a lawyer yesterday, this damages the kid on his record. They have no jurisdiction over any child not on school property

On the video on Fox I saw their house. modest home, they don't have money for lawyers so they'll need someone to take the case on as a cause, which I think someone would. They definitely need one b/c if nothing else the idea you can be suspended by a 3 person board (and I think that wasn't unanimous) for half a school year before you can even appeal is insane.

Definitely the key issue is they think they have any authority over what a person does off of school property, student or not. based on their rule no student in their school can go hunting or go to a gun range even with a parent. that's obviously utter nonsense and needs to be squashed without remorse, the board members who think so run out of town on rails.

What's come out is that this really was on private property, wasn't near their property or even the bus stop (which I assume is just a designated point they don't own or control on someone else's property), which means they have no case at all. Now that it's hit the national news they may get the pro bono representation they need.

[UKHistory]

Sounds like a case that the ACLU should represent the family. Kid's rights are being violated.

It is a toy and it did not take place on school grounds. Not there business.

[dethbylt]

The school's response to the negative media coverage. REgardless of a waiver, it feels like mentioning the previous disciplinary issues is a low blow. The parents claim, in another article, to have signed a waiver for the school to talk about the airsoft incident only. Methinks the school haad some fine print in the waiver...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BU9hzLjCUAAVdbC.jpg:large

[dethbylt]

:sAng_banghead2:

^^ When I try to type fast...

[CitizenBBN]

The school's response to the negative media coverage. REgardless of a waiver, it feels like mentioning the previous disciplinary issues is a low blow. The parents claim, in another article, to have signed a waiver for the school to talk about the airsoft incident only. Methinks the school haad some fine print in the waiver...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BU9hzLjCUAAVdbC.jpg:large

Several key wording points in there:

-- It wasn't a "pellet gun". It was an airsoft gun that shoots plastic bbs. Maybe a technicality but a pellet gun shoots metal pellets and is far more dangerous.
-- It says "taking aim" at other students. this is different from the claim another student was struck. I find that an interesting change.
-- The principle was informed by police of one student chasing another with "a gun" but didn't know if it was a toy or real per that report? You mean the police didn't tell him it was a toy gun? They then investigated and found out it was an airsoft gun? I find it odd the police would call a principle and say "gun" and not that it was a toy, when the Va Police washed their hands of the matter and said no crime was committed.
-- It claims they were not just on private property but also "in the streets". I'm unaware that the streets are school property in va Beach. that's for the police to manage, isn't it?
-- this addresses ONE Of the students, but the other has been suspended for the year and will be home schooled. They may have chosen that versus this alternative school option, but regardless that kid being home schooled and this one still have no appeal process until January, which IMO is patently unfair regardless of the kid or the penalty. That's not good due process for a 1 year suspension. That hearing should be within a week or two at most.

Maybe the kid needs to be disciplined and put in a different school, whatever, but there's no justification for that decision based solely on this incident, which is what they released in their original statement. They were using this to justify their actions against him and were motivated by a history of issues, but this still shows that none of the actions took place on school property. "On their way to the bus stop" isn't "at the bus stop" even if we consider the stop to be school property. It is a case for the Va Beach police if they are firing on other students on the streets of Va Beach, not the school. If the police decided there was no crime then this ends there IMO, as it never violated school rules.

maybe this kid has issues and needs to be disciplined, but this wasn't the justification for it. sounds like he may have already given them those justifications and they let it slide.

One last thought:

This says the principle took steps to make sure no "weapon" made it on the bus or to the school. I know it LOOKS like one, but an airsoft bb gun is NOT a "weapon". It's a toy, but no more dangerous than the metal truck you could use to bash in your buddy's head if you got mad. It is not defined federally as a weapon and probably not in Virginia either. I know it's not in Kentucky. I'm not even 100% yet that this toy would violate their rules, I haven't seen their wording, but it's not a "weapon" in any conventionally accepted sense and that's why the Va Beach police didn't charge anyone with anything. If he'd been threatening other kids with a real "weapon" he'd be in trouble.

I'm not saying it's OK to shoot other kids with an airsoft gun, but it's not OK to throw pebbles at them either and that's also not a weapon, though it's more of one IMO than this toy. Neither gets you a year suspension. Growing up I got "shot" more than once with a plastic toy or had someone throw a pebble at me, it wasnt' a matter for the police and it sure wasn't a matter for the school even if I was walking to the bus stop at the time. The school's authority starts at that stop when I get on the bus, not at my doorway.

These school officials need to get past the idea that anything that looks like a gun IS a gun. Guns should be banned from carry by students. The little green plastic army man with a "gun" is OK. I have no problem even banning anything that shoots projectiles simply for maintaining discipline and good behavior, but it's not a "weapon" or a "gun" you are banning, just a class of toys that can be too disruptive. It's like banning something that makes loud noises, it's disruptive but not a matter of student safety (other than mistaken identity, which I mentioned above).

[KeithKSR]

Hope the laws there are better than in Alabama, where generally, all school officials and school boards have immunity for making stupid decisions.

Immunity does not prevent lawsuits, nor does it prevent huge insurance settlements.

[Darrell KSR]

Immunity does not prevent lawsuits, nor does it prevent huge insurance settlements.

Of course it does. Wouldn't get a dime here. States vary in laws, of course.

Sent using Forum Runner

[KeithKSR]

Of course it does. Wouldn't get a dime here. States vary in laws, of course.

Sent using Forum Runner

Kentucky local boards of education and teachers have immunity. It doesn't prevent suits from being filed, board members and teachers get sued in both their professional and personal capacities all the time. I am a party to one such suit at this time, even though I wasn't even present where the incident occurred and was supervising students in another area of the building.

By law I have immunity, but that doesn't prevent the filing of the suit, nor is it a guarantee that I will be dismissed from the suit. Ultimately the suit will be settled by the insurance company, as it is cheaper for them to settle than it is to battle in court.

These suits hope for a favorable judicial ruling from a local judge regarding immunity. Local judges are elected and are hesitant to dismiss even when immunity is obvious. Then the plaintiff's attorney looks to settle knowing a jury trial and the appeals that would follow are an expense the insurance companies' actuaries aren't willing to fund.

Many of these suits involve injuries, so the plaintiff starts with an advantage in being sympathetically viewed by juries.

I'm not sure how other states handle injury claims, but in Kentucky if the medical expenses for an injury were billed at $X and the plaintiff pays nothing, because the cost is picked up by insurance, the defendant's counsel cannot indicate in court that the medical expenses were fully paid. I see the deception of giving the jury the impression that a plaintiff has born the cost of medical expenses as morally unethical, but the law requires the deception be perpetrated.

[suncat05]

JMHO, but to me this is huge overeach in authority by the school principal and the school board. HUGE OVEREACH! Whether there is any legal recourse available to the wronged students is another matter, but I am sure there is some sort of legal remedy for the students that is available, and that will right this situation.
If those kids were in their front yard, and even out in the street in front of their residences, then this is a private parental rights/disciplinary issue and not a public school related issue. Just my take, calling it like I see it.
Just more intrusion by an out-of-control government entity.

[dan_bgblue]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/02/florida-boy-8-suspended-from-school-after-using-finger-as-pretend-gun/?intcmp=latestnews

[CitizenBBN]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/02/florida-boy-8-suspended-from-school-after-using-finger-as-pretend-gun/?intcmp=latestnews

School district officials told the station its code of conduct prohibits students from playing with invisible guns.

I don't have a clue where to even start.

[UKHistory]

This is horrible. If I did not think that I would be arrested, I would call the school and tell that I am running around my own home using my index finger as a blaster to take out imperial troops have stormed my porch.

[CitizenBBN]

Does this one qualify as a "Thought Crime"?

[badrose]

Does this one qualify as a "Thought Crime"?

Definitely. It has come to this. Big Guv is in bed with Academia. No video wanted or needed.

[dan_bgblue]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/03/arizona-police-officer-asked-not-to-wear-uniform-at-daughters-school/?intcmp=latestnews

[CitizenBBN]

Dan, it's hard core indoctrination against guns, pure and simple. Any gun is evil, they drill it into the kids, so then a kid says "someone was at school today with a gun", not making the distinction it was a feakin' cop b/c the school doesn't make those distinctions either. All guns are bad, period.

Then the parents freak out and get on the phone, while their kids go play the new Grand Theft Auto and pretend kill hookers with shotguns.