Sweet home Alabama...just not for black sorority sisters

[Darrell KSR]

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2013/09/white_ua_sororities_to_grandda.html#incart_m-rpt-2

In today's world, I just don't see how this exists.

[dan_bgblue]

I wonder if the University will take a stand and root out the bigots?

[Darrell KSR]

I wonder if the University will take a stand and root out the bigots?

It is disappointing to me, as I know numerous young ladies who are in sororities there. I realize the pressure, and inherent lack of authority and standing they have to do anything about it, but I am still disappointed.

Neither of my daughters there were in a sorority, but they could have been. It boggles my mind that they could be easily chosen while Justice England's granddaughter had no chance due to the color of her skin.

Edit... I hope the University does, Dan. Some of the offenders are actually University employees, too.

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[Doc]

Darryl, this is one of the main reasons I left Alabama when I got out of school. In my four years at Auburn, I had exactly ONE African American teacher and she was the only African American on the teaching staff or support staff. Likewise in the 7 classes that came thru Auburn during my time there (the 3 classes before mine and the 3 after mine) there was one African American Vet student. So in answer to Dan's post, I doubt it.

[jazyd]

The problem is can the University do anything to a sorority or frat or punish them in any way since they are private organizations and should be allowed to allow who they want or not want regardless of money, race.
While what they did is wrong, imo the University or any University should not be telling who those organizations should admit or not. Much like the private baker in Seattle that is being threatened by the law for not baking a cake for a homosexual wedding because of their religious beliefs. That is a private business and should be allowed to sell who they want. Should Darrell be forced to take on any client the government decides he should represent regardless if they can pay or not? Should doc be forced to care for any animal regardless of whether he wants to or not?

There is discrimination everywhere, including with blacks against whites. At Jackson State here in Jackson, Ms they have a black golf coach...Walter Peytons brother...who gets grief from the alums because most of the golf team is white. They win, alot but the black alums don't want white players. The football team had a white qb last year that led them to the conference championship game, but this year he didn't start the first game...excuse was he had a back injury....and they started a freshmen black qb who then got hurt so the white kid has to start now. That was two white qb's in a row, didn't go over well at all.

I think the UA president should send a letter to the alums and the chapter expressing his feelings but I do not think he should give them any punishment what so ever. I do not want any more government agencies of any kind interfering with private business and telling any of us what we have to do on how we run our business.

[BigBlueBrock]

You mean to tell me a Greek organization is guilty of bigotry, prejudice, and discrimination? How shocking!

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[Darrell KSR]

Universities have a ton of power over fraternities and sororities. I learned that from "Animal House," (double secret probation, anyone?)

Seriously, they can do all kind of things up to, and including, banishment from the University.

As far as the government requiring me to take clients--happens regularly, depending on jurisdiction. In federal court in the middle district of Alabama, any lawyer admitted there is required to represent clients on the indigent federal criminal defense list. I tell a funny story to my business law class (I spend one class period on criminal law, as I think everybody should know a little--which is all I know, anyway). The basics of the story are that as a young tax lawyer in Montgomery, I was admitted to federal court, and I was assigned a client to represent.

I managed to "duck" the appointment a couple of times--the judge's secretary knew I was doing it, but I did my best--and finally she called me and told me she knew I was ducking it, but she had one that "even I could handle"--reckless driving. Only reason it was federal is because it occurred on Maxwell Air Force Base.

I assured her I wasn't ducking the appointments, and graciously accepted the appointment, then walked down the hall to one of the attorneys in my firm who actually handled criminal matters to ask him what to do.

LONG (but funny) story short--when I arrived in court, they had switched my representation from that to defending someone charged with possession of cocaine on a federal military base, a very serious felony. One of the (many) punch lines was when I told the judge's secretary there must have been a mistake, and she said, "oh, I remember--let me go talk to the judge and see what I can do." She departed into his chambers--where she probably was laughing her fool head off--and then returned with the case file, telling me the judge said, "The Judge said you're a lawyer. You can handle it."

Definitely not one of my finest moments. But plea bargained the guy to probation and a fine. (again, numerous punch lines on the way to that end result.)

[BigBlueBrock]

Universities have a ton of power over fraternities and sororities. I learned that from "Animal House," (double secret probation, anyone?)

Seriously, they can do all kind of things up to, and including, banishment from the University.


I like this. You don't have to "force" them to admit anyone, but you can tell them to get their racist asses off campus if they continue to discriminate.

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[badrose]

Race. I doubt this country will get past it my lifetime and every time I read something like this it feels like it sucks all the air out of my lungs. For every spark there seems to be a raging fire.

[Darrell KSR]

By the way, I'm not expressing an opinion on what I think *should* be done. We have a very strong First Amendment right that attaches to the right to associate as well. My disappointment is a separate matter. (And yes, I hope the University does..."something." But I don't know what that is, and I'm reluctant to go too far out on a limb here just because I disapprove of what is occurring.)

[elicat]

It's going to be interesting to see how the employment situations of that Chi O advisor and whatever other university employees are involved shape up.

[jazyd]

As I said what they did was wrong but I don't want any more government takeover of private organizations. And the shame is the chapter and girls wanted this young lady, it is the alums causing the problem.. It will be the girls and chapter that will bear the brunt, not those causing the problem.



By the way, I'm not expressing an opinion on what I think *should* be done. We have a very strong First Amendment right that attaches to the right to associate as well. My disappointment is a separate matter. (And yes, I hope the University does..."something." But I don't know what that is, and I'm reluctant to go too far out on a limb here just because I disapprove of what is occurring.)

[bigsky]

I like this. You don't have to "force" them to admit anyone, but you can tell them to get their racist asses off campus if they continue to discriminate.

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This, in a nutshell.

[Darrell KSR]

Meanwhile, I'm at Railroad Park tonight for a commemoration of the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing. Guessing 15,000 or so here. Proud to say my 14-yr old daughter is a part of 24 young men and women, mostly white, singing at this event. There is good here. Unfortunately, it's mixed with the bad.

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[BigBlueBrock]

Good on you, Darrell! Those prejudicial ideas get weeded out a little more with every generation. My paternal grandmother, who was from Virginia, was a horrible racist, but my dad never felt that way, or at least he never brought it up if he did. I, for one, have no tolerance for those kinds of attitudes.

[Darrell KSR]

That should have said 5,000. I try to estimate better than UK football :). I will be interested in seeing what the news estimates.

[EDIT--the news story said 10,000. So split the difference.]

Here's the story on the event. You can scroll through some pics and get an idea of the crowd makeup I describe below.
http://www.al.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2013/09/crowds_assemble_at_railroad_pa.html


Also was the full group, about 55. They have an older group, too, of about 30. Did a really cool song with a MLK narrative in it and it gave you chill bumps.
But here's still something that gets me.

Crowd was maybe 85% black. My wife and I and two sons actually went to the Birmingham Barons Southern League Championship game across the street at 6, then walked over to the event. Struck by the difference in the makeup of the crowds. Probably 85% white at the Barons game.

We will get there, but it will still take time.

My daughter's tweet:

Blessed and honored to be apart of something like this. 


2703

I know a large part was just performing, but a just as big part was the empowerment theme and what it meant. The atmosphere was filled with hope and progress. It was good for Birmingham. 1963, fire hoses, the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing, and letter from a Birmingham jail may have been 50 years ago, but you look at a completely segregated Greek system at UA, and know you still have a long way to work.

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[Darrell KSR]

Story is evolving.

http://blog.al.com/tuscaloosa/2013/09/what_we_know_now_university_of.html

[jazyd]

Have the black frats and sororities been told they must bring in white?

[BigBlueBrock]

Have white students been barred from rushing black Greek organizations?

http://cw.ua.edu/2011/09/21/diversity-increasing-in-black-greek-organizations/

Apparently not.

[elicat]

I'm wondering when this is going to start being felt at other institutions. This situation is hardly unique to Alabama. Not that Alabama doesn't need to deal with it also. But I'm looking forward to seeing reporting on a discussion about this at UConn, or at Berkeley. In a way it's almost too easy for the media to latch onto Alabama as *the* place where things like this happen.

[Darrell KSR]

I'm wondering when this is going to start being felt at other institutions. This situation is hardly unique to Alabama. Not that Alabama doesn't need to deal with it also. But I'm looking forward to seeing reporting on a discussion about this at UConn, or at Berkeley. In a way it's almost too easy for the media to latch onto Alabama as *the* place where things like this happen.

Good point.

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[Darrell KSR]

@ALcomBirmingham: University of Alabama suspends block seating for Colorado State game in light of sorority discrimination allegations http://ow.ly/p0TJU

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[Darrell KSR]

@ALcomBirmingham: Were federal laws broken at University of Alabama? US attorney monitoring racial discrimination claims. http://ow.ly/p21Sg

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[Darrell KSR]

Alabama sororities break racial barriers, bids accepted!

http://blog.al.com/tuscaloosa/2013/09/alabama_sorority_breaks_racial.html

[Darrell KSR]

Alabama President says 23 minorities, including 14 African-American young women, have accepted bids now.

All sororities on campus have minority members now, and 12 sororities have African-American women.

http://blog.al.com/tuscaloosa/2013/10/university_of_alabama_presiden_3.html#incart_river _default

[jazyd]

How can it be a federal law to decided who you want in a private organization? Is that taken away from us now also, that a private organization must invite who the feds say they must invite? Do we have any freedoms left?


@ALcomBirmingham: Were federal laws broken at University of Alabama? US attorney monitoring racial discrimination claims. http://ow.ly/p21Sg

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[Darrell KSR]

How can it be a federal law to decided who you want in a private organization? Is that taken away from us now also, that a private organization must invite who the feds say they must invite? Do we have any freedoms left?

Not as clear cut as you might think. I don't know if it's legal or not. I see both arguments.

Federal law prohibits discrimination in housing and education, among other areas. Are fraternities more of a private club, or more of an arm of the University? An apartment complex could not discriminate against someone because they are black; could a sorority house? The dorms cannot discriminate against someone because they are black; can a fraternity house?

That's the rub, and where they'd get in trouble--I think. I have done a little employment work, just finished defending a doctor against racial discrimination claims here in federal court, and probably get something substantive about once every year or two in that area, so I'm by no means an expert.

But what if the sorority or fraternity did not provide housing? Would it then be ok? Or would the "education" part get them?

Fraternities and sororities act like private clubs in most other areas, though.

Glad I don't have to make that call. And glad they're diversifying and desegregating. The state of Alabama needs no more negative publicity in that area.

[jazyd]

To me they are private regardless if they have living arrangements or not. They charge dues like a club. Not educational, not public. And I say the same for a black organization that they can invite who they want.

Otherwise why can't a boy demand to be in a sorority or a girl demand to be on Ala football team

[Darrell KSR]

To me they are private regardless if they have living arrangements or not. They charge dues like a club. Not educational, not public. And I say the same for a black organization that they can invite who they want.

Otherwise why can't a boy demand to be in a sorority or a girl demand to be on Ala football team

Lot of differences in those examples, Jazy. Legally they're not similar at all.

The last brief I filed in a similar area was 50 pages long, not including table of contents, so I'm wordy in my 'splaining. I am afraid I can't articulate all the substantive differences in the examples you gave and a fraternity or sorority without resorting to CitizenBBN-like post length. And remember, I am not suggesting fraternities and sororities *are* subject to the law, just that there are strong arguments that they are, just like a student government association at a University would be.

Push came to shove, and I had to guess, I would say they are subject to the Civil Rights Act. I think it is broad enough to encompass a student organization. But there are thousands and thousands of pages of law and courts interpreting the law that would give guidance on the matter. It isn't a clear case either way.

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[jazyd]

Doesn't make it right. Just as Augusta National is a private golf club a sorority is a private organization


QUOTE=Darrell KSR;116038]Lot of differences in those examples, Jazy. Legally they're not similar at all.

The last brief I filed in a similar area was 50 pages long, not including table of contents, so I'm wordy in my 'splaining. I am afraid I can't articulate all the substantive differences in the examples you gave and a fraternity or sorority without resorting to CitizenBBN-like post length. And remember, I am not suggesting fraternities and sororities *are* subject to the law, just that there are strong arguments that they are, just like a student government association at a University would be.

Push came to shove, and I had to guess, I would say they are subject to the Civil Rights Act. I think it is broad enough to encompass a student organization. But there are thousands and thousands of pages of law and courts interpreting the law that would give guidance on the matter. It isn't a clear case either way.

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